jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Sept 1, 2014 18:28:36 GMT
Any thoughts on this little label. Appears to be Greek in origin, but unable to find it in Scott's. Charity label? Essay? Who knows?
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 1, 2014 18:39:29 GMT
Essay from the ~1860s showing King George and the Parthenon. Yours is Type I. Your particular essay exists in 9 different trial colors and 2 different types of paper. Is yours thin paper or cardstock? I recall Rod222 or somebody showed the full set of 9 colors at a place far far away. It might have been somebody else, but considering how many pics Rod has, he's usually the best guess. k
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Sept 1, 2014 18:48:38 GMT
Wow khj! You are quick like bunny! Mine is on thin paper. Found the thread you mention, and yes it was our Rod. Thanks for the response.
A quick look and I see he has also posted these in the Greece Submenu under Europe on this forum. The man is a machine!
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 1, 2014 18:51:50 GMT
Figures.
One of these days, I'll start collecting cinderellas...
I don't see the type II very often.
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Sept 1, 2014 20:42:11 GMT
Just curious, what's the difference between types 1 and 2?
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 1, 2014 21:16:53 GMT
Thanks Kim, for the extra information !
James I presume 2 types as Kim suggested, thin paper and Cardstock.
(BTW have not forgotten your request for Hutt River, still looking)
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 1, 2014 21:42:01 GMT
Type I exists on both cardstock and thin paper.
Type II is a slightly modified design. I'll see if I can pilfer a pic. It'll probably turn out to be another pic from Rod...
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 1, 2014 21:48:24 GMT
Took a quick look at Rod's Greece thread. Yes, those are the same Type I. The quick way to differentiate between Type I and Type II is to look at the background shading in the portrait. Type I is composed of horizontal lines. There are other design and portrait differences that are obvious when side by side. Still looking for a picture to pil.. err borrow in the name of fair education use.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 1, 2014 22:04:40 GMT
Here's a Type II, showing the portrait background as curves and cross-hatching. There is an even earlier crude essay (I've not seen a Type assigned) in which the background is composed of diagonal lines. There is a Type Ia, but can't remember the details -- but the difference is in the lettering. Don't hold me to this, but based on my observations of essays showing incomplete portraits, it looks like the cardstock printings are probably essays, and the thin paper printings may be color trials. Note however, that the incomplete portrait essays on cardstock also exist in different colors. I have not seen, so far, incomplete portraits on thin paper. I forgot to mention, forgeries of the Type I (and variations) do exist, but I don't know the quantities involved.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 1, 2014 23:06:29 GMT
OK, did some more research.
The earlier essay that I spoke about with the diagonal lines in the portrait is a fake. Learned something new today.
I also took a closer look at Rod's stamps. They are indeed different from the one posted by James. James has Type I -- tilted Lambda at in the bottom panel has a short serif/stem at top right. Looks like all of Rod's stamps have an upright Lambda with a long serif/stem -- which I believe makes them Type Ia. However, I do not know the distinguishing characteristics of the Type Ia forgery -- I only know that they exist.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 1, 2014 23:58:38 GMT
OK. Both James and mine are forgeries.1. Type has upright lambda with short stem, horse has no tail 2. Type has upright lambda with long stem, horse has pronounced squarish tail. Thanks Kim.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 0:09:30 GMT
You've been dancing, haven't you?
Thanks for finding the info regarding the forgeries! I hadn't had an opportunity to go hunting for it.
However, I do have a question. What is the stamp James showed a forgery? It appears to have the correct left-tilted lambda and the horse has no tail.
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Sept 2, 2014 0:13:24 GMT
this just gets more and more intriguing! Rod, if yours and mine appear to be the same as the Type I described, what makes them forgeries?
Khj and I answered and asked the same question at almost the same time. I can see the difference in the quality of the portrait in mine and Rods image compared to khi's. Guess that could be one clue.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 0:21:07 GMT
Just so there is no confusion, the 2 types described by Rod are NOT the same design type definitions that I spoke of earlier. Those are 2 different sets of Type definitions for different purposes. I'll let Rod figure out how to keep them unambiguous.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 0:22:41 GMT
Let me post a genuine Essay Type I design. You cannot compare your Essay Type I stamps to the Essay Type II stamp that I posted.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 0:28:10 GMT
Here is a genuine Essay Type I. You can see the horizontal lines, the left-tilting lamba with short stem at top right, and horse with no tail. If you want to compare other aspects, you will need to compare to this one, not the Essay Type II stamp.
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Sept 2, 2014 1:08:58 GMT
Definite differences! Thankyou both for clearing this up for me.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 2, 2014 3:19:50 GMT
this just gets more and more intriguing! Rod, if yours and mine appear to be the same as the Type I described, what makes them forgeries? Khj and I answered and asked the same question at almost the same time. I can see the difference in the quality of the portrait in mine and Rods image compared to khi's. Guess that could be one clue. Well, to be frank, I was just guessing, primarily because the head is VASTLY different in both James' and Rod's example of the essay according to Kim. Now I have lost the plot. I'll engineer a *.gif and illustrate the difference
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 2, 2014 3:43:00 GMT
Righty Ho! we have it finalised, with Kim's new essay, Bravo! (I wonder where you got those images Rod's is a forgery James is genuine, a spot on reprint of the latest essay of Kim's I always reckon forgers can never get faces or frames correct, and my forgery the Right Hand side zero of "20" leans to the right, whilst the original essay leans a fraction to the left, so Toggling, the zero dances (the Lambada Thanks to all contributors, that was a cool journey.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 3:52:29 GMT
Thanks for your input and pictures, Rod!
After a whole bunch of googling to pilfer pics, it turned out most of the pics could be found at one site. I really need to start doing things backwards.
It is compilation sales site, so I was hesitant to post the link. However, if anybody is interested, just PM me and I'll send you the link.
Rod, I'm too lazy to google -- may I ask where you got the forgery info regarding the horse tail? Thanks!
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 2, 2014 4:07:07 GMT
Hi Kim, just myself, I load James' and my own stamps, and just toggle, the differences just pop out at you. The two essays, and the facial difference. (There are also 9 pearls above the Doric columns Right Hand Side on one, and 10 pearls on the other)
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 4:37:28 GMT
Very cool gif, Rod!
I should try out that website in the near future!
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 2, 2014 5:02:56 GMT
Very cool gif, Rod! I should try out that website in the near future! Easy Peasy Kim, for really great fly specking, it works best if you scan both stamps at 600 dpi, then crop off the perfs and just use the stamp to the frame border, You can pick up anything. Using others scans at different sizes, one loses the effect.
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Sept 2, 2014 11:55:23 GMT
Ok, I can see where mine is similar to Kim's second image (the type I). Though mine is a much cruder printing. I wonder if mine is a reproduction? It does seem quite newish looking.
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 2, 2014 13:37:32 GMT
Keep in mind that these are essays, which means there will be some design changes over a series of printings. Also, my understanding is that there were in fact different printings, made with different types of plates/processes. I've never sorted through to figure it all out, but the forgeries that I've seen were all lithographed, but that does not imply that all lithographed stamps were forgeries. The stamp James showed appears to be lithographed, which may explain some of the loss in detail/sharpness. It could still be a forgery/reprint/reproduction, I don't know enough about it. I'll leave it to the cinderella collectors to sort/figure it all out...
Thanks for posting the pics, James/Rod!
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Sept 3, 2014 1:12:53 GMT
Keep in mind that these are essays, which means there will be some design changes over a series of printings. Also, my understanding is that there were in fact different printings, made with different types of plates/processes. I've never sorted through to figure it all out, but the forgeries that I've seen were all lithographed, but that does not imply that all lithographed stamps were forgeries. The stamp James showed appears to be lithographed, which may explain some of the loss in detail/sharpness. It could still be a forgery/reprint/reproduction, I don't know enough about it. I'll leave it to the cinderella collectors to sort/figure it all out... Thanks for posting the pics, James/Rod! I agree Kim, James' appears lithographed but genuine. When I toggled both your essay (the second one) and James stamp, they were identical in shape, the face and the values didn't twitch. You get the biggest pat on the back I wasn't aware these had such a history. My only question remains, were they originally mooted for telegraph stamps? as the text appears to suggest.
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Apr 1, 2015 12:22:36 GMT
here's another label that appears to be Greek. Red Cross, obviously I could have sworn I have posted this somewhere before, but can't find any thread, either here or on SCF, and in fact I didn't even have a scan. So there you go, another false memory!
As mentioned it appears to be Greek, and it is postally used. Could it be a postal label that accompanied a stamp? I can't even decipher a date from the cancel. I think the serpentine perfs are pretty cool too. What do y'all think?
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Apr 1, 2015 16:07:38 GMT
Postal Tax, 1915, RA2B in Scott.
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Apr 1, 2015 17:15:57 GMT
well, shut my mouth! why didn't i see it? thanks cjd
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jamesw
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Post by jamesw on Aug 15, 2015 3:04:11 GMT
Here's another pair of these essays. This colour is a dark ochre. Though the background lines behind the portrait are straight, like my red version, the Lambda is quiet different - long descender, like on Rods version - and there appears to be a slight difference in the 2. But again, no tail on the horse, unlike Rods. Thin paper, no gum.
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