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Post by classicalstamps on Nov 23, 2016 9:50:34 GMT
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cjd
Member 
Posts: 1,107 
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Post by cjd on Nov 24, 2016 15:53:30 GMT
Nice work. Love the marked-up images.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 24, 2016 18:05:12 GMT
Thank you very much, Classical! This is a beautifully done post. I agree with First Frog that the detailed, labeled images are great. I collect WW1840-1930, and Fiume is one of my favorite countries. I will need to pull my holdings out soon and start looking to see if I have a bunch of forgeries in there. I will be sure to post the results on this thread when I do. Thanks again!
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Post by classicalstamps on Nov 24, 2016 19:24:41 GMT
I'm glad you find it useful! Beryllium, Keep us posted what you find out :-)
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 27, 2016 21:45:11 GMT
Classical, I just posted on Falschung's WW Forgeries thread, and I realize that I mistakenly attributed the Fiume Forgeries resources to him rather than you. Sorry about that!
I will get to work on Fiume in the next week or so and let you know what I find.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 28, 2016 17:10:09 GMT
Well, I have finally gotten around to making my first post with photos in this thread. Sorry for the delay, Classical! I actually have quite a lot of stamps from Fiume that I need to go through. These are the only ones for which I have a photo or scan.
I have taken a close look at the inscription POSTE DI FIUME on both of these stamps. When compared to your points for genuine versus forgery, it appears to me that both of these are genuine. Do you agree?
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Post by classicalstamps on Dec 29, 2016 16:56:42 GMT
Beryllium Guy,
The base stamp appear genuine. Note that just because it seems genuine does not automatically make it so.
I can not see the overprint clearly from your photo. What is your conclusion regarding that?
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 30, 2016 7:02:51 GMT
The base stamp appear genuine. Note that just because it seems genuine does not automatically make it so. I can not see the overprint clearly from your photo. What is your conclusion regarding that? Thanks for the reply and comments, Classical!
I'm not sure that I understand your comment that "just because it seems genuine does not automatically make it so." Does this simply mean that there are other forgeries in addition to what you illustrated in your posting? Or does it mean something else?
I have not researched the overprints yet. I took this photo with a digital camera, because it predated my more complete understanding of how to get better than 300dpi resolution using my scanner. I am still away from home on holiday travel, and I will scan the stamps at 600dpi and re-post once I return home. My initial goal was to determine if the base stamps were genuine or not. I figured that if the base stamps turned out to be forgeries then surely the overprints could not be genuine either.
Any other comments you have, Classical, will be much appreciated.
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Post by classicalstamps on Dec 30, 2016 10:00:37 GMT
I'm not sure that I understand your comment that "just because it seems genuine does not automatically make it so." Does this simply mean that there are other forgeries in addition to what you illustrated in your posting? Or does it mean something else?
On my website I show all forgeries I am aware of for the countries listed. (I have many 1000's for countries not listed waiting in queue due to lack of free time) From a logical standpoint, you can not conclude genuineness from seeing a known genuine side by side with x number of forgeries. If you have seen (only) 5 swans - all of them white - can you say for sure black ones doesn't exist? In the very early days of philately, 'experts' kept track of all known forgeries (things were simpler back then..). One very common practice when they examined stamps was to compare to these known bad apples. If it looked genuine, and didn't match any known forgeries, many would conclude that it was indeed genuine. Thankfully things have evolved since then. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,654
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 31, 2016 16:43:52 GMT
Thanks for the explanation, Classical!
I understand your point. I guess that the best I can say for the moment, then, is that my stamps appear genuine. They are clearly different from at least one known forgery featured in your post.
I have a fair number of stamps from Fiume which need to be checked for genuineness. It's going to have to wait for a while though, as I will be travelling for most of the next couple of weeks, and will not be in a position to do anything with those stamps for now.
It will be an interesting project for the future, and I hope to start tackling it after the upcoming travel and getting through the rest of my Austrian stamp backlog.
Anyway, thanks again for your comments and explanation.
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Post by rjan55 on Sept 1, 2019 23:46:44 GMT
I have some frustrations in the area of FIUME. As noted above in the thread the sources I also found seem to list multiple examples of forged overprints "FIUME" but do not clearly show genuine examples. In my experience you need both side by side to effectively make a determination. Has anyone seen a site providing definitive genuine overprints (whatever variances may exist).
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Post by classicalstamps on Sept 2, 2019 13:35:57 GMT
I have some frustrations in the area of FIUME. As noted above in the thread the sources I also found seem to list multiple examples of forged overprints "FIUME" but do not clearly show genuine examples. In my experience you need both side by side to effectively make a determination. Has anyone seen a site providing definitive genuine overprints (whatever variances may exist). There are dozens of genuine examples shown side-by-side to many common forgeries in the pages on my site I linked to the the first post in this thread. They were made with the help/mentoring of one of the worlds leading experts on Fiume, so I'm very puzzled by your post. stampforgeries.com/forged-stamps-of-fiume-1918-overprints/![]() The quality of the images shown as well the the descriptions are of very high quality. There are more than 250 high resolution images. I'm not sure what kind of reference material you were looking to find?   |
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Sept 2, 2019 18:30:06 GMT
Extremely detailed work on those Fiume forgeries Morten - Bravo!!! I am impressed by you taking the time to do this. I find it time consuming only to look at your work, never mind actually creating it. I say wow!! Thanks for sharing  |
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renden
Member
Posts: 8,711
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Oct 17, 2019 19:25:07 GMT
Using classicalstamps post on authentication of FIUME overprint, here is # 23, 1918 with what seems original overprint + cancel. This is a forerunner of an overprinted Hungary stamp prior to Italians seizing of the Country in 1919. Besides my Norway friend, anyone interested in this stamp ?? I do not collect forerunners but its Scott value (2019 Classic Cat) is interesting. (not the best scan ever) René  |
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Post by rjan55 on Oct 18, 2019 3:01:47 GMT
I recently spent some time on this area, including one of the sources cited early in the thread. I found it frustrating that the major source showed forged copies without true reference to the valid originals, This area was rife with material and there seem to be as many sources of bad material as there were dealers in the day. I find that forged examples without valid source material is not that useful.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 13, 2022 12:00:17 GMT
A few years ago I bought a batch of Fiume stamps. Some of them I identified as genuines/forgeries by calling Ivan Martinas (thanks again to him for the evaluation on the scans of the stamps) and with the help of information from a website (I don't think it is active anymore - I believe it is (??)Ron Marleau's "stampsforgeries.ca") Unfortunately I didn't save the genuine versus forgeries recognition clues. Since I've turned to collecting German stamps I stopped with identifying Fiume stamps. I show you some genuine stamps for reference (please note that the stamps are not certified and any opinion is welcome) without mentioning the catalogue number (it would be helpful to add the Scott number). Block of genuine stamps:  Genuine stamp with variety - "a" above.The deformed letter "C" is not variety.The inscription "Fiume proclama l'annessione all' Italia" must be clear.The stamp has on the back "Posta di Fiume"   Genuine stamp-same observations as above. The slightly slanted letter "C" is not enough for variety.  |
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rex
Member
Posts: 1,150
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Post by rex on Mar 13, 2022 12:52:27 GMT
The Fiume stamps are a very interesting collection, but they have undergone many forgeries in different periods,
it requires a very careful study,
I do not dare to say anything about the authenticity of what you show. I think the fakes of these issues are just as interesting as the originals and should also be collected as a comparison with the originals.
Nice part of the sheet, congratulations.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 13, 2022 13:06:25 GMT
@ rex-Photos of these stamps have been evaluated by the expert as genuine. I agree that the stamp needs to be under the eyes of the expert for a final decision. 2 more genuine stamps. The letter "O" must be round (oval = forge)   |
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Post by gstamps on Mar 13, 2022 14:04:41 GMT
Interested collectors can visit the website of expert Ivan Martinas - "www.martinas.eu".
There is a lot of specialized information and I believe you can also order the book about Fiume stamps.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 14, 2022 7:41:38 GMT
2 stamps with genuine overprint.The "Valore globale" overprint is of 3 types depending on the size and thickness of the letters. ( L 0.06 is type 2 / L0.04 is type 3) The stamps have "Posta di Fiume" printed on the back.  Stamp with genuine overprint.The overprint is "a cavallo" variety - the overprint is shifted upwards so that part of the "Segnatasse" appears on the bottom of the stamp.It has "Posta di Fiume" on the back.  Stamp with genuine overprint.Variety of colour.Has "Posta di Fiume" on the back.  In the above mentioned website you can view the specialized catalogue for Fiume. |
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Post by gstamps on Mar 14, 2022 13:57:38 GMT
I think fakes are useful too (I always keep them) These 3 stamps did not pass the evaluation: fake overprint.    This stamp has a variety (overprint shifted up - the line appears at the bottom)  I have the stamp in the genuine stamp area, but unfortunately I deleted the expert's evaluation emails and I don't have 100% certainty that it is genuine. Maybe it helps "classicalstamps" I've attached the 2 stamps (forge+genuine?) to help see the differences.  |
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