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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 10, 2021 19:48:50 GMT
![]() ![]() First some facts. As I understand it, these were actually first produced in 1886. printed by New Zealand Government Printers for John Davis, postmaster appointed by King Malietoa. This complicated but short postal history ended 01.03. - 1900 when Germany took power. Palm Trees has many different varieties and I have read on several forums in recent days that several believe all varieties have not yet been found. And there are a lot of fake stamps out there on the express series and some on Palm Trees Correct me please, I'm not sure about this series when it comes to technical data 1886-92, P12 1/2. wm: wide N Z and wide star, 6 mm distance letters / star 1887-92, P12 * 11 1/2. wm: wide N Z and narrow star, 4 mm distance 1895-1900, P11. wm: narrow N Z and narrow star, 7 mm distance I have found the whole series at the same time, 8 pieces, but start with only these 2. All 8 seem to have been postmarked the same day, which indicates that they may have been together on a letter or it could be fake cancels. First I read and saw that cancels should be purple in color, then I have seen others in black, anyone know anything about this? Regardless of the false postmark, a physical postmark has been used since several of the stamps have an impression on the paper. Not printed or anything. And to what I struggle with, does anyone know the characteristics and registered variants to first distinguish edition, reprints, fakes etc? So watermarks, it should be measured from top star to bottom NZ, from the edges, which is not exactly an edge :-) very unclear and if you are a little sloppy on both then there is quickly a margin of error of 0.5 to 1.0 mm, at least an uncertainty. Any good techniques? Begge disse to har P12 1/2, I do not have enough experience with these to be sure of the size of the star, the letters have a clearer difference, these 2 have 6mm distance but I only see small letters and the star then looks small  
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,657 
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 10, 2021 20:09:42 GMT
Hi, Egil ( NordicTraveler ), and thanks for starting this new thread. I was about to respond to your questions about posting images, but it seems as if you have gotten a handle on that now. Our resident expert on Samoa around here is Alex ( vikingeck ), who has in-depth experience in the field. I have tagged him now, so hopefully, he will see this and respond.
Edit: P.S. If you want to delete the second post because it is no longer needed, you can do that yourself, or I can do it for you, if you wish. If you click on the little gear wheel in the upper right-hand corner, "Delete Post" should be one of the options. |
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 10, 2021 20:24:22 GMT
Thanks Beryllium Has in previous forums been told that it is often unwanted that it is deleted, anyway. So thought clear the text was best, nothing wrong done  found the "button" and executed |
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renden
Member 
Posts: 8,716
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Aug 10, 2021 20:38:41 GMT
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,269
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Aug 10, 2021 20:42:17 GMT
To clarify how this Forum likes to handle deletions, if you've made a mistake and no one has responded to your post, then it is okay to delete it. If members have responded to the post, then we prefer that it remain. In that case, you are free to make any edits that may be required, Regarding Samoa, there is a very interesting article written by vikingeck on the subject in the current issue of our Newsletter. It may be viewed by clicking here. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 10, 2021 21:17:47 GMT
Hei Egil NordicTraveler .. Welcome here especially since you have some Samoa. I will try to answer your questions perhaps tomorrow as I have some other correspondence to sort before bed time ! FORGERIES; These and Reprints are very common on the EXPRESS. It is easy to sort them however. Forgeries are not common in the Palm trees because, apart from some special printings they they not scarce. some fake overprints and surcharges are known (eg the FIVE PENCE on the 4d blue ) but generally there are not so many problems Mr Davis however had good contacts in San Francisco who wanted used stamps, and Davis is known to have cancelled sheets with the same date to sell to collectors, so even with a genuine postmark many used stamps never went on a letter. Your two stamps unfortunately are damaged and that makes the watermarks difficult to see. More from me later ! med venlig hilsen Alex ( Vikingeck) |
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 10, 2021 21:32:32 GMT
Thanks Renden
Tomiseksj
completely agree, if it is read then it should be.
I'm trying the link
Vikingeck, i see.
And yes, Express is a good level higher.
And my stamps are unfortunately damaged yes. Was disappointed when I turned them over.
Some of the others are better. I can post the picture, but I have several things on those I try to find out. And asking questions about 8 at the same time, chaos for me
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 10, 2021 22:04:56 GMT
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 12, 2021 11:27:59 GMT
It is more than likely these were hand cancelled by Mr Davis for his philatelic agents Cooper or Schellschop in SanFrancisco to satisfy the collector market .
Once the wider world learned about the new issues from the tiny island kingdom there was a great demand, and the number of used postally was not enough to satisfy collectors.
The stamps and the cancels shown are perfectly real and legitimate, genuine not fake , but cancelled to order.
There are no forgeries or reprints to worry about in the palm trees, just be aware that cancelled does not mean postal use.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 12, 2021 16:15:55 GMT
As you said earlier there are 3 similar watermarks NZ and a Star referred to by the distance in mm between the letters and the top of the star. as 4,6 and 7mm They are tricky to sort out but this CURL TEST is some times a help
The mesh in the paper can be either horizontal for the 6mm or vertical for the 4 and the 7 mm paper. if you lay the stamp face down on the palm of the hand and breathe on it gently, the 6mm paper will curl horizontally from top and bottom edge, while the other two curl longways . Then the difference between 4 and 7 is more obvious .
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 12, 2021 16:35:08 GMT
Hello vikingeck
the term horizontal or vertical I have previously experienced can quickly be misunderstood. I have checked this on all of them, but in order not to make a mistake, I make a picture that shows which way everyone curves.
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 12, 2021 16:41:48 GMT
that's how I remember they were, will of course take a new test   |
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 12, 2021 16:44:28 GMT
as I have understood and as I read on a forum, it has never been found 7mm wm on one shilling with P12 1/2, which then indicates that the curve must be vertical to be 7mm?
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 12, 2021 17:47:16 GMT
the perf 12.5 Wmk 7 mm are all scarce temporary perforation, and only 240 of the 1/- were printed apparently in March 1891 They do exist but rare .
The other 12.5 issue of 1886 was on wmk 6mm
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 12, 2021 18:15:24 GMT
so 12.50 perf with 6 mm are common?
those who have 12 * 11.50 also have 4mm wm, do not remember which of them now
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 12, 2021 18:16:44 GMT
i think it was 2 of P12*11.50 that has 4 mm wm when i check
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,607
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Aug 12, 2021 23:40:02 GMT
While this thread is active I thought it would be a good time to share the first 2 pages of the Samoa stamps I have in my father’s Scott British Oceania album. The vast majority would have been bought by my dad in the 1960’s from a British auction house. When I merged my collection with his I believe I would have just added a few used ones found in old collections. It would appear he bought a collection of mint remainders. It is not a country I have looked to add to at this time. I also have quite a few mint from 1900-1960.   |
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Post by NordicTraveler on Aug 13, 2021 7:14:18 GMT
wow
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 13, 2021 8:02:59 GMT
While this thread is active I thought it would be a good time to share the first 2 pages of the Samoa stamps I have in my father’s Scott British Oceania album. The vast majority would have been bought by my dad in the 1960’s from a British auction house. When I merged my collection with his I believe I would have just added a few used ones found in old collections. It would appear he bought a collection of mint remainders. It is not a country I have looked to add to at this time. I also have quite a few mint from 1900-1960. The mint palm trees and surcharges , and your used ones, all look perfectly ok . No worries about genuine there. No reprints, or forgeries. The used 4 at the foot of the page all look darker than they should .possibly a touch of sulphuration.? the Express however are all “suspects” as I would expect. The detail is not sharp enough to be sure but I think they are all the “club foot” forgery ..so called due to the clumsy right leg on the M of SAMOA. This is confirmed when the 1st Pearl in the lower arc touches the white line above. In the genuine there is a gap. the yellow shilling and the two shillings alongside , have a different M and may be reprints produced for Whitfield King after the Express office was closed down rather than forgeries. None of them have any catalogue value. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 13, 2021 8:33:12 GMT
On your second page I am intrigued that the 1899 Provisional Government overprints ,which are the last series , are shown at the top , Out of sequence . You should be aware as Egil stated in his thread NordicTraveler , there are three watermarks and three perforation combinations , not to mention a big number of short print runs and shades to be found between 1887 and 1899 for the basic palm tree …….hours of fun and frustration identifying these. All genuine but there are some scarce ones to be found. |
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Aug 13, 2021 10:43:49 GMT
I do not see many stamps from Samoa on Stamporama.
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,607
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Aug 13, 2021 11:18:17 GMT
On your second page I am intrigued that the 1899 Provisional Government overprints ,which are the last series , are shown at the top , Out of sequence . You should be aware as Egil stated in his thread NordicTraveler , there are three watermarks and three perforation combinations , not to mention a big number of short print runs and shades to be found between 1887 and 1899 for the basic palm tree …….hours of fun and frustration identifying these. All genuine but there are some scarce ones to be found. Thanks Alex, I thought you would probably have constructive comments. At some point if I hit the wall on my Canada, provinces and British America collections I may spend more time on the British Oceania countries. I know the best way to do that is to basically remove all these stamps to properly confirm what they are rather than trust my dad’s mountings. I agree about the Express ones being suspect and are left there as space fillers. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 13, 2021 11:20:22 GMT
I do not see many stamps from Samoa on Stamporama. Well it’s a small country , a few dedicated followers , a fascinating philatelic history from private posts, independent kingdom, German colony , NZ administration and independent state. ( anyway what’s Stamporama when it’s at home?) |
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