WERT
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What I collect: Canada and Provinces
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Post by WERT on Aug 23, 2021 21:53:34 GMT
Moderator Note: Robert ( WERT ) originally started this thread with the subject Scott J71 Sheet of Cancelled Postage Due Stamps. As it has turned out to be the only thread in the US BOB sub-board about postage due stamps, it seemed only right to broaden the subject to permit the thread to live on and continue as a tribute to Robert's memory.
I am by no means an expert with regards to USA stamps. I have had this sheet for some time now.... Scott J71 postage due stamps. There are 77 stamps on a sheet that obviously have sticky back on a sort of a plastic backing. Here are my questions....1 - Are they cancelled/precancelled... 2 - If cancelled, are they still considered MINT... 3 – Are they all sold on a sheet like this one... One cancel Top corner looks like maybe “SOUTH ATMOL ?” Any help appreciated.
Robert
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 23, 2021 21:59:43 GMT
Thanks for your post, Robert ( WERT ). I just looked it up, and there is a place called South Athol, Massachusetts, which would seem to be the location for your postmark. As for mint or not, I would offer the opinion that these look cancelled to order, at least to me. But I have no special expertise in making that comment.
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WERT
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What I collect: Canada and Provinces
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Post by WERT on Aug 23, 2021 22:29:01 GMT
Beryllium Guy.....Thanks
We know all collectors classify MINT stamps are stamps not used on covers/letters and have no town/city/etc. normal cancels on a stamp. We know all collectors classify MINT stamps are not used in postal process with original gum an not hinged.
These stamps were never sent through the post office process.
This is got me confused, maybe others can chime in with their ideas....I hope.
Robert
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 23, 2021 22:34:13 GMT
Well, Robert ( WERT ), I think I understand your question, but have you never heard of cancelled-to-order (CTO) stamps? It means mint stamps, in full sheets with gum intact, that are cancelled for the purpose of selling them. CTO stamps do not go through the mail and are not considered postally used. If you are unfamiliar with this practice, you can start by looking here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancelled-to-orderThis was a very common practice with stamps from eastern Europe during the 1960s-1970s, for example, and it has been done in many other countries, too. It looks to me as if your sheet of US postage due stamps has been cancelled to order.... just my opinion. Let's see what others may say.
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JeffS
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What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Aug 23, 2021 23:12:26 GMT
Most likely accountancy for a large mailer who had a postage due bill that he was able to twist an arm and get the due amount paid as such. It is possible that the postage due "wicket" had an OVER-abundance of 2-cent dues. Postage due bills typically would be paid with a stamp of the largest value then lesser values added as seen fit. I think it a perfectly legitimate use, but on a sheet of paper as this is, of little philatelic value other than a curiosity.
The SOUTH ATHOL ID is correct.
The checkerboard effect of folding in the blank portion is curious.
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WERT
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What I collect: Canada and Provinces
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Post by WERT on Aug 23, 2021 23:40:54 GMT
Well they could be CTO stamps for collectors....But that brings up another question...Why would a collector ordered a sheet of J71 for his collection, then remove 23 stamps. As a collector, i would not do that to my collection and probably most collectors would not do that either...
In Canada there are cancel stamps called precancels to speed up the delivery time for customers. Now i am even less sure what i got.
Robert
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Aug 23, 2021 23:48:06 GMT
As a time-saving measure, some post offices pre-cancelled entire sheets of postage dues.
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JeffS
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What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Aug 24, 2021 1:52:59 GMT
As a follow-up to the large 2-cent multiple, here is an image from the net. One can see this is a post office form and with a heading I have not previously noticed.
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Tom mentioned Postage Dues "precanceled" (using regular postmarks). This second example is with a roller cancel usually reserved for parcels. Without more information about the paper that it is adhered to, precancel use is probable conjecture due to the precise application of the rollers.
Mute double oval cancels are frequently used to precancel as well.
I doubt the original item is a precancel use due to the hodge-podge application of the grid and the intermittent application of a dated cancel.
The field of US postage dues can be as fascinating as one cares to make them with different designs, proofs, printings and usages.
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khj
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Post by khj on Aug 24, 2021 1:58:44 GMT
Post by JeffS is the most likely explanation. Full panes of postage dues cancelled to pay a PO bill and never affixed to an envelope/document are not rare. Although not at all common, I've even seen full panes of dollar postage dues.
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Aug 24, 2021 7:22:59 GMT
These stamps cannot be called MINT as they have been cancelled . It looks from JeffS examples that WERT ‘s part sheet must have served a similar purpose. Ie probably been used as a receipt for payment of a post office bill. It would have been nice to have an original invoice document to confirm, but I believe they have been used . . So from the perspective of postal history,they are collectable,they have been legitimately used for fiscal or revenue purpose, just not stuck on a postal item. I prefer fiscal used rather than CTO as the reason for these. I do not believe they were done for sale to collectors
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khj
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Post by khj on Aug 24, 2021 8:41:22 GMT
Agreed, they are definitely not CTO's. A CTO is sold by the post office as "not valid for postal use" -- you cannot use a CTO stamp for postage on a mailing. A precanceled stamp, has been canceled prior to sale, but is still valid for postal use.
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Post by decentguy on Nov 14, 2022 12:48:52 GMT
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,364
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 14, 2022 15:57:12 GMT
decentguy, Are you asking for confirmation of your belief that the stamps are the special printings of the 2 cent (Scott J9) and 5 cent (Scott J11)?
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khj
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Post by khj on Nov 14, 2022 18:44:01 GMT
I'm admittedly really bad with color shades, especially red shades. Ignoring that my monitor is not color calibrated, both your stamps look like claret shades to me, not brown shades. The special printing color of deep brown would be closer to the dog in your avatar, than the 2 stamp pics you posted. Below is a genuine J8 special printing (not mine) to give you a rough idea of what the deep brown shade should look like:
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Nov 14, 2022 18:49:36 GMT
Pretty convincing colour difference khj,, I can see the “brown” in your scan .
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 14, 2022 19:13:08 GMT
Agree with vikingeck on this one - there is some brown coming out of the last scan while the 2 first posted make me think of "claret wine" !...certainly not "brown" like the 1879's .....will not go into Scott's bright claret and deep claret. René
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,364
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 14, 2022 19:18:32 GMT
I guess I won't wait for a response to my question. The stamps shown by the OP are most likely from the 1891 issue -- one of the claret shades. Here are images pulled from the Philatelic Foundations database of stamps certified as being genuine. The top row, from left to right, are from the 1879 (brown), 1884 (red brown) and 1891 (bright claret) issues. The bottom row are stamps certified as being genuine from the 1879 special printing (deep brown, Scott J9 and J11).
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hdm1950
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What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Nov 14, 2022 19:43:42 GMT
From my own small collection of early US postage due stamps. In my judgement ( I could be wrong on the J15) from left to right they are 1879 J1 brown or pale brown; 1884-89 J15 red brown and 1891-93 J22 bright claret. To my eyes the original post are from the 1891-93 bright claret set and for sure not from the 1879 deep brown special printing.
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Post by decentguy on Nov 14, 2022 22:10:49 GMT
Pretty convincing colour difference khj ,, I can see the “brown” in your scan . Yeah I agree as well!
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Post by decentguy on Nov 14, 2022 22:23:02 GMT
decentguy , Are you asking for confirmation of your belief that the stamps are the special printings of the 2 cent (Scott J9) and 5 cent (Scott J11)? It was only a question Not asking for any confirmation mate... It's all good I am already convinced.... It was too early in the morning here....... sorry I couldn't reply any earlier I was deep asleep...
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 14, 2022 23:07:39 GMT
decentguy , Are you asking for confirmation of your belief that the stamps are the special printings of the 2 cent (Scott J9) and 5 cent (Scott J11)? It was only a question Not asking for any confirmation mate... It's all good I am already convinced.... It was too early in the morning here....... sorry I couldn't reply any earlier I was deep asleep... Sorry...do not see what you expect LOL !! René
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Post by decentguy on Nov 14, 2022 23:39:26 GMT
It was only a question Not asking for any confirmation mate... It's all good I am already convinced.... It was too early in the morning here....... sorry I couldn't reply any earlier I was deep asleep... Sorry...do not see what you expect LOL !! René In all honesty Rene and I really mean that! I like it when its very obvious members are trying to be more than helpful that itself is worth more than anything!
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Post by thenewguy on Feb 29, 2024 14:34:06 GMT
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