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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 18:54:34 GMT
Moderator Note: Interesting posts focused on watermarks, which will include information on paper, have been moved to a separate thread to further that specific discussion and hopefully make it easier for those using TSF as a resource to find particular details when desired.
In the process of reviewing this great COGH Triangles thread the last several days, I was a bit surprised that there was little mention of the "Watermark Sideways" varieties. They have a CV of about double the usual upright "Anchor" watermark. Apparently they occurred when the paper was fed in wrongly? The usual upright watermark.....(Scott 13 "Anchor"; SG W 2) The watermark is not uncommonly visible by merely glancing at the back. But watermarking fluid will reveal the watermark most of the time (In my admittedly limited experience about 90% of the time). The other 10%?: well I'm still working on it.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 19:01:38 GMT
So why am I showing this block, which unfortunately is horribly creased? It will be clear in a moment.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 19:06:33 GMT
I turned the block, but you should see the two watermarks -sideways - half of each watermark on each side of a triangle.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 19:22:06 GMT
I should mention for orientation purposes the watermark block above shows the separation between triangles runs horizontally from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 26, 2022 22:27:28 GMT
In the process of reviewing this great COGH Triangles thread the last several days, I was a bit surprised that there was little mention of the "Watermark Sideways" varieties. They have a CV of about double the usual upright " no surprise Jim , I haven’t found one yet and Chris hasn’t admitted to having one ,though it may be his best kept secret. the Double catalogue understates the relative scarcity of the sideways watermark . The ratio is far from 1:2 ! I just bought a lot of 14 examples of the 4d blue a month or so back in the hope that there might just be a watermark variety ……no luck
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 27, 2022 0:07:41 GMT
Cape of Good Hope Triangles Anchor Watermark: Upright & SidewaysThanks for your post about sideways watermarks, Jim ( jkjblue ), and for your comments, Alex ( vikingeck ). Jim, you are quite right that there has been very little discussion on this point, and I take responsibility for that. It has long been on my to-do list, especially because there is an erroneous post about watermarks very early in this thread, which I have been wanting to correct. I just hadn't gotten to it yet, but it seems now that today is the day! Here is the image I had already prepared, but had not yet posted. Diagrams showing normal (upright) and abnormal (sideways) arrangement of watermarks for the Cape of Good Hope triangle issues. Excerpted from Stevenson, D. Alan. The Triangular Stamps of Cape of Good Hope, H.R. Harmer Ltd., 1950. Alex wrote: You gave me a good laugh on this one, Alex! As it happens, I do have one Cape triangle with sideways watermark. It is an SG19d, and I posted it previously in this thread back on 06-Dec-2020 here: thestampforum.boards.net/post/111322/threadYou responded to that post, but you were more interested in the earlier Perkins Bacon issues with the blueing on the backs. Anyway, I have since then removed the hinge remnants and rescanned it. I don't have a photo of the stamp in watermark fluid, but I will try to do one of those next week. I was very lucky to get this stamp. I spotted the sideways watermark in the scan of the eBay listing, as it was not mentioned by the seller, so I took a chance on it, and it seems to be a genuine example. COGH, SG19d 4-Pence Deep Blue with Sideways Watermark (most easily seen at the lower right of the back)
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 27, 2022 8:10:05 GMT
COGH, SG19d 4-Pence Deep Blue with Sideways Watermark (most easily seen at the lower right of the back)( Beryllium Guy) - That's very lovely DLR 4d blue. I recognized it as a probable DLR issue, so I might be getting the hang of it. And the back clearly shows a 1/2 sideways "anchor" wmk - even without detection fluid. Nice pick up.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 27, 2022 10:10:52 GMT
Thanks, Jim ( jkjblue ), you are kind as always. It reminds me that I forgot to say that if my 4d single is lovely, then your 1d pair is spectacular. Wow! Seriously well done. I completely agree with Alex ( vikingeck ) when it comes to the value and scarcity of these stamps. Given how infrequently they are available, I think they are undervalued. Over the past 2 years, I would say that I have only seen 3-4 examples offered on eBay. There are probably other ones out there, but not identified as such. I always find it annoying when sellers offer Cape triangles without showing a scan of the back, since what is visible on the back can make a big difference on correct ID. I still browse the Cape triangles on eBay looking for interesting items, so if I ever come across another one with sideways watermark, I will go after it if I can get it for a fair price. Based on my experience, I realized after the fact that I was extremely lucky to get this stamp as I did, in a listing where it was not properly identified. Some sellers are so worried about returns due to incorrect ID, that they don’t even attempt it. They just list it as a 4-Pence Blue triangle and leave it at that. Those kinds of listings can yield some very interesting material!
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 27, 2022 22:28:51 GMT
I discovered this Cape of Good Hope triangle in the plastic tub today. The back looks fresh and the margins superb. It has a light hinge remnant mark and appears to be watermark 15 from the negative. I've outlined what appears to be the watermark with arrows and a "T" for top and a "B" for bottom. ( Moderator added red "x" to denote that the watermark orientation shown is not correct.) The stamp looks like the white paper 1855-58 "Hope" Seated Scott #4 design A1 4P blue. I mentioned earlier that there was a post with erroneous info about watermarks on Cape triangles, and the quote above is it. I am not sure who the former member was that made the above post in the second page of this thread. But I can say that I think he was very fortunate to find any Cape triangle in a mixed lot of stamps, especially a full 3-margin copy with a nice clear obliterator cancel. I have bought plenty of mixed lots, probably numbering several dozen at this writing, and I have never found a Cape triangle in any of them, even one in poor condition. For anyone wondering about his reference to "Watermark 15", he is referring to the Scott Catalogue designation for the Cape of Good Hope Anchor Watermark: The problem with the post is his illustration for the watermark. What the member has shown in his drawing is actually not even possible. There are only two possible orientations for this anchor watermark: upright or sideways. In the latter case, the anchor appears in two halves along the bottom edge of the stamp, as shown in the illustration cited previously. I think what he saw are the lines from the obliterator cancel coming through the paper, and he mistook a couple of those parallel lines to be the "stock" (cross-piece) in the anchor. This situation illustrates quite well how difficult it can be to see the watermarks on these stamps, and how easily a cancel can affect one's ability to see the watermark, too. I am going to go back to the original post and make the same modifications as I did in the quote above to ensure that if anyone reads the original post, they will not be misled.
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banknoteguy
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Posts: 287
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Mar 28, 2022 13:10:45 GMT
This is a thread I read whenever something new is posted! Even though I have only one cape triangle [so far].
I had not determined the watermark. From the back [scanned on black] you can see part of it. So I shot an image in watermark fluid to see what that brought out. You can clearly see the anchor -- at least part of it.
Images below. Scanned at 1200dpi on black background
Back side
Photographed in watermark fluid (Nikon D7200) on camera stand
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 6, 2022 20:23:55 GMT
I agree that Example Fourteen looks like an SG19 (Sc13), and that it is a rather woolly one at that. It's a nice stamp!Chris ( Beryllium Guy ) - thanks for the evaluation, and at least I have one DLR 4d stamp. !! Yes, I thought this was probably a deep blue (SG 19) variety. Example FifteenThis "sideways" specimen 4d stamp is either a woolly PB or a DLR in my view. Agree? Quoted post from original thread with images to move to this new thread. This stamp is an SG19, 4d DLR somewhat woolly printing, with unusually prominent sideways watermark(s). As can be seen from the earlier posts showing the diagram of the watermark layout for the Cape triangles, a stamp with sideways watermark should typically only show two halves of the anchor. This example shows almost two entire anchors, which is remarkable, in my opinion. Great find, Jim ( jkjblue )!
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 11, 2022 21:51:15 GMT
Cape of Good Hope Triangles More on Anchor-Watermarked PaperAs promised, Jim ( jkjblue ), more info on the watermark will be presented here. I thought that perhaps we should first start with a bit of anchor nomenclature, so that when we discuss what we are seeing in a specific watermark example, we can identify the parts correctly, to make it clear what we are talking about. Despite the fact that I took college-level courses in Naval Science at one point, I had since forgotten the details about anchors. So, I did a little refresher for myself and put together the following illustration. Common Anchor with Parts Labelled There are more detailed parts to anchor descriptions, but as we are only interested in naming the parts of the Cape Triangle watermark, this simplified version should be adequate. I used reputable sources for this info, such as long-established encyclopedia publishers, but all of the existing images were copyrighted, so I decided to create my own to avoid problems. On to the Anchor Watermark, then, and here is what Stevenson wrote about it: I particularly agree with his last comment, which I imagine is directed mainly at catalogue publishers. To illustrate his point: Side-by-Side Comparison of Representations of the COGH Triangle Stamp Watermark I have not researched images from other catalogue makers, but just to illustrate the point, I have taken the images from SG and Scott and placed them in a composite image together with the illustration excerpted from the Stevenson book. Frankly speaking, the SG illustration is possibly the least accurate of any that I have ever seen of this watermark, and I am surprised that they have never taken the time to improve it. It isn't even close to what collectors will see on the stamps. The Scott image is a closer approximation, but still a little off in proportions, at least to my eye. The stock seems a bit too long and a bit too narrow compared to what is generally seen. Stevenson's illustration is better than the catalogue publishers' attempts, as he shows that there is a distinct "head" that connects the ring to the stock, and he has put points on the flukes, which can definitely be seen in most stamps in which the full watermark is visible. This post has become long, so I will stop here for now and add more info tomorrow, with scans of examples from my collection.
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Post by jkjblue on Apr 12, 2022 1:10:44 GMT
Cape of Good Hope Triangles More on Anchor-Watermarked Paper Chris ( Beryllium Guy) - I had no clue that the Anchor watermark ( and the representation of it) is such a fascinating topic for exploration. Looking forward to your posts on this.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 14, 2023 5:28:12 GMT
Article on Cape Triangle Watermarks Reprinted in CNPJ Dec-2022 EditionI wanted to let everyone know that one of the references that I used for my previous article has now been reprinted in the latest edition of the Cape & Natal Philatelic Journal (CNPJ), introduced by the following editorial note: I was delighted to see that this has happened, because the referenced article is a superb analysis of the anchor-watermarked paper used for this issue. One of the most interesting points that the author makes is that it should be possible to find stamps without watermarks simply due to a shift in position of the paper during printing, rather than due only to the breaking off of the wire devices during the manufacturing of the paper, which Stevenson theorizes as the primary cause. The newest edition of the CNPJ may be found on the website here: www.capenatalstamps.com/For anyone who would like a copy of the Journal but cannot access it, please contact me by PM or email, and I will get a copy to you. I also realize that I am way overdue in adding to this thread, despite promises made many months ago. My apologies to all! I will need to correct that in the near future.
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REL1948
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What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
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Post by REL1948 on Jan 14, 2023 22:35:28 GMT
Great article Chris (Beryllium Guy), I got my copy yesterday and jumped right to the article on COGH Watermarks. It really is an excellent partner to your article in the last issue of The Cape and Natal Philatelic Journal (Formerly the Natal & Zululand Post) . The Cape and Natal Study Circle publishes exceptional articles on everything related to this area of South Africa philately. Even more better, all of the back issues are available online, a treasure trove of material you won't find anywhere else.
Rob
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