Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 19, 2023 14:22:25 GMT
JeffSMany thanks for sending me an email with the image of your latest acquisition. Congratulations to you, as it does indeed look like a very nice, postally used SG20, which is not easy to come by. I don’t have one, myself. I have an unused example and a couple of fiscally used examples. In addition to the nice color and margins, the other characteristic of yours that I really appreciate is the sharpness of the print. In my experience, most DLR 6d examples are more-or-less woolly when it comes to print clarity, but yours looks unusually sharp. It’s a great stamp, my friend, and I congratulate you!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 20, 2023 0:23:09 GMT
Beryllium Guy Hi Chris, and thank you for your informative and encouraging response. You have again added to my limited knowledge bank of information about these stamps. I wish we could collaborate together in person. Jeff
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 20, 2023 0:42:15 GMT
Thanks for your post, JeffS…. I agree with you that it would be a lot of fun to collaborate in person. I think I am seeing a road trip to Texas in my future! Until then, stay Cape Triangle stampy, my friend!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 30, 2023 12:12:35 GMT
Recently acquired from eBay, a 4d with a pre-printing paper fold when opened. The white paper was visible in the seller's listing but with no further explanation. I was hopeful that those viewing the lot would just assume this to be a post-printing defect and stay away. However one other bidder kept me honest.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 30, 2023 14:26:26 GMT
Very interesting item, JeffS , thanks for posting it. I am a little pressed for time this morning, so I won't go looking just now, but there is a relevant passage in Stevenson where he talks about flaws and wrinkles in the paper. If my recollection is correct, he states that finding such things is quite a rare occurrence, because Perkins Bacon was scrupulously dedicated to high quality, and they would have exerted all their best efforts to ensure that flawed, wrinkled, or folded sheets never made it to printing. As you so often seem to do, my friend, you have found a very unusual item. What an incredible eye you have for these things! My time will be more my own later this afternoon, and I will take a look at Stevenson then to see if I can unearth the relevant quote, but I think my recollection is essentially correct. I believe this to be a great and unusual find. Congratulations and thanks for sharing!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 30, 2023 15:10:48 GMT
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 1, 2023 23:22:47 GMT
Regarding my previously posted "paper fold," an acknowledged authority on Cape Triangulars who posts on another site as "cape triangle" and signs his posts as "Richard" commented about another paper fold the following:
"Unusually (sic) you have a paper fold affecting the stamp. These are particularly scarce since perfect sheets were favored by the printers and the paper suppliers, Rush Mills of Northampton were particularly careful in supplying such sheets."
A further post of his states, "I am not so good with values but I think it should have a US $25 premium above the normal to a knowledgeable buyer." In my opinion, based on what such bring in other classic stamp areas, this amount is disingenuously low. I further note that an example is not included in his exhibit of his triangulars posted at that site.
IMO only.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 1, 2023 23:38:59 GMT
Many thanks for your latest post, JeffSAs Cape Triangles with paper folds in them come up so rarely, I have no idea what the market value would be. I suppose that if a COGH SG6/6a, which is the most common of all Cape Triangles, was offered at US $25, then a premium of US $25 would be double the usual price. Still, I would have expected a greater premium than that, but perhaps that is because I really like Cape Triangles, and I look for unusual varieties, just as you do. If most collectors don't really care about the varieties, that would affect the market value. It's the whole rarity versus scarcity principle that stanley64 wrote about for the TSF Newsletter a while back. Even if something is rare, if there is little demand for it, then the price/value will reflect that. All of that aside, I think you have found a very unusual item, and it is all to your credit that you were able to get it for your collection!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 1, 2023 23:51:15 GMT
Beryllium Guy thank you for our response. I suspect that a better qualifier for an added premium of a paper fold should be a percentage of what the particular stamp should bring in its current condition without paper fold, and a percentage which may or may not accelerate depending on a hightened quality of the stamp in question, the degree of severity of the fold and the propensity of this to occur. While I have been in this area for but a year or more, I have not yet found an example of the most common 4d blue selling for $25 to be of interest to me, quality-wise. I'm looking forward to your finding time (I acknowledge your "bizzyness" with the newsletter which was perhaps the best so fo ar, but more on that in that appropriate thread) to post the Stevenson remark(s) about paper folds, once referred to as "accordion" folds due to the nature of the fold.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 2, 2023 4:19:24 GMT
I'm looking forward to your finding time (I acknowledge your "bizzyness" with the newsletter which was perhaps the best so far, but more on that in that appropriate thread) to post the Stevenson remark(s) about paper folds, once referred to as "accordion" folds due to the nature of the fold. Thanks for your understanding, Jeff, and sorry for my slow response. Too much going on for me this weekend! Anyway, I have finally been able to track down the passage in the book that I was looking for: Source: Stevenson, D. Alan. The Triangular Stamps of Cape of Good Hope. H.R. Harmer Ltd., London, 1950, p. 81. The quote is basically as I remembered it, and it speaks to the rarity of stamps with creases (i.e., folds) in the paper. Richard Debney's comments to you on the other stamp site seems to be referencing this same passage. This is probably the best information we have, unless someone like michael, who researches Perkins Bacon documents, can tell us anything more. I hope this may help a little.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 2, 2023 21:35:10 GMT
Following on from previous discussions on SG19b Slate Blue. I managed to buy a certificated stamp (South African certificate with SACC number 15). I've scanned the stamp (left) with the previously presented very woolly possible 19b. Both these scans are scanned through the stock sheet clear plastic. The stamp in the centre was also treated with 3% hydrogen peroxide for a few minutes. The stamp on the right is a screenshot of the 19b from SG referred to in Chris' article in the CNPJ (September 2022). Keen eyes on the color similarities welcome.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 3, 2023 2:08:09 GMT
wm. Nice slate blue. I have not yet come across one for my collection.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 3, 2023 15:49:32 GMT
Thanks JeffS . Beryllium Guy piqued my interest... There were a few listed on e-Bay, but hard to tell if they were genuine. I found this one through a seller in UK.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 3, 2023 16:34:25 GMT
wm I have found that on eBay both the slate blue and the steel blue come in a myriad of shades
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 3, 2023 16:52:26 GMT
Sorry for my slowness in responding to your post, Warren ( wm). I have been busy fielding PM traffic this morning! Warren, your stamp is a beautiful used example, and I think that the certificate is spot on, not that my opinion has that sort of clout! When I had the interview with George James at SG in London, I was amazed to see the images of all the SG19 shade varieties. I had never seen such a nice array of these before, and what I liked most about it was that the color shades in the images actually fit the description! Slate blue has that dark, charcoal element to it: it looks like slate+blue. Same with steel blue. Amazing! And all of these other shade and print-clarity varieties that sellers on eBay are claiming to be the rare ones, just don't stand up to a bit of logic backed up by evidence, i.e., the images from SG. All of those stamps showing the light patchiness in the background are interesting, yes, but I still stand by my thinking that they are not Slate or Steel Blue shades. JeffS has got it absolutely right: "Caveat emptor" (buyer beware) clearly applies when purchasing supposed rarities on eBay. Warren, you have done very well, and I congratulate you! P.S. Whenever we do finally meet in person, I will bring my scanner and laptop along, too, and if you agree, we will scan our stamps together to help with making comparisons. I also still want to learn how to use the color shade software to quantify these shades, but that is still a way off for me.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 3, 2023 16:59:10 GMT
JeffS and the many SG6/6a's that lay claim to blued paper
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 3, 2023 17:14:36 GMT
Thanks Chris Beryllium Guy. A visit to SG is very much on the bucket list, and there is much to benefit from your interview/visit and insights into the shades. I'm looking forward to digging in more, and it will be good to scan with the same scanner for comparison (I'm using a Canoscan LiDe 400 which goes up to 600dpi). It will be good to figure out ways of quantifying the color. I have a few mystery stamps that are blues unlike any of the others, some quite close to slate blue, but not quite there. And one very light/pale blue which is interesting (I'll scan and post with a few comparison stamps soon).
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 3, 2023 21:49:16 GMT
(I'll scan and post with a few comparison stamps soon). 👍
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 4, 2023 16:58:06 GMT
JeffS Herewith the light(er) blue 4d on the left, which looks to be a De La Rue printing. It has a washed out appearance, and is lighter than all the other blues I have in my collection. Comparison stamps are what I take to be an SG4 Perkins Bacon, middle, based on the front color and a blue green hue on the reverse (this possibly doesn't show up on the scan as well, although this stamp also has an off center watermark which seems more common on DLR's). The left hand stamp also has an off center watermark. The comparison stamp on the right is an SG6/a. Thoughts, and has anyone come across a similar light blue? As Chris Beryllium Guy mentions, there are a wide range of blues.
|
|
|
Post by clivel on Oct 5, 2023 0:24:19 GMT
I noticed that your stamp was certified by Lutz Heffermann. He was the publisher of the highly regarded South African Stamp Colour Catalogue (SACC).
Unfortunately, he was shot, killed and robbed in 2008 at his home in Johannesburg. A sad day for his family and a great loss to philately.
Apparently he had a fantastic collection of Cape Triangulars, and at the time of his death was working on research papers with the intention of publishing these. I wonder what became of these.
Clive
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 5, 2023 13:37:16 GMT
clivel Thank you for sharing that information, and a sad loss indeed. I wasn't aware of his passing (and the awful circumstances), and didn't make the connection to SACC. It certainly makes me appreciate his signed document more. All the best Warren
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 5, 2023 15:51:56 GMT
Herewith the light(er) blue 4d on the left, which looks to be a De La Rue printing. It has a washed-out appearance and is lighter than all the other blues I have in my collection. Thoughts, and has anyone come across a similar light blue? As Chris Beryllium Guy mentions, there are a wide range of blues. Many thanks for your post, Warren. Before I offer an opinion about your pale blue stamp, I would like to know if you can supply a higher-resolution image of it? I saved a copy of your posted image, but when I increased the magnification on it, it got blurry very quickly. If simpler, and you do have such an image, please feel free to email it to me. I would like to see the detail better on this stamp. I will tell you honestly at the moment that my impression of the color, while certainly pale compared to the other examples, looks more like the PB-type blue than DLR, at least to me. But I would really like to have a better quality image to examine. As it happens, I do have a paler blue DLR print, so I will try to do a digital side-by-side comparison for you, if you can give me a better image. clivel : Thanks for pointing out that the certificate is signed by Lutz Heffermann. I had not known about him until just a few months ago. I am thinking it was JeffS who had mentioned him, but I am not 100% sure on that.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 5, 2023 17:22:14 GMT
Thanks so much Chris Beryllium Guy. I have sent at highest resolution.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 6, 2023 4:47:59 GMT
Cape Triangle 4-Pence Pale BlueThanks again for your post, Warren ( wm), and for sending me the higher resolution images, which were quite good. I have taken the liberty of putting together the composite image below, with some explanations to follow. Upper Left: This is the stamp whose ID is in question. Lower Left: One of your other scanned examples for comparison. Upper Right: COGH SG19a Blue: this is my ID, and it is the lightest blue color of all my SG19 varieties. The scan makes it appear darker than it visually appears to me. I may try to take a photo in natural light tomorrow. Lower Right: COGH SG19a Blue: this is also my ID, and it is a quite a woolly print. Warren, I have looked at the scan of your stamp, and I believe that the color is more similar to the PB print shown just below it than it is to either of the stamps on the right, which are certainly DLR prints. It may be paler than the one below, but I think it is still a shade of the PB blue, as I don't see any hint of the indigo color that is characteristic of the DLR blues. In addition, the print clarity of your stamp seems to be semi-sharp, and it does not show any woolliness or the light patchiness in the engine-turned background, both of which are indicators of DLR prints. So, based on the color and print clarity, my opinion is that your stamp is a PB print, most likely an SG6 or 6a that is a color changeling. My best guess is that it has been chemically treated to lighten or remove the cancellation, and that treatment has lightened the color, too. Your stamp has a very faint cancel on it, and I tend to be suspicious of stamps with faint cancels whose color doesn't seem quite right. All of that is just my opinion, of course, and others are welcome to offer theirs. Thank you very much for posting this stamp and asking for opinions. It was a fun project for me today.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 6, 2023 8:15:02 GMT
A well-thought analysis and visual comparison.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Oct 6, 2023 20:50:09 GMT
Thank you so much for your close look at this stamp and sharing examples Chris Beryllium Guy . Your analysis makes sense and possibly explains the slightly washed out look of the stamp. Also, the possible change from a PB blue vs DLR. I'm hoping to post a few more query stamps when I get back from travels (6d's to change the theme a bit). Warren
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 10, 2023 21:22:36 GMT
Arrived today, this 3-margin example of the dark blue DLR woolly printing with a nearly clear figure of Hope and a moderate but readable BONC "3" of Grahamstown.
Scanned at 600 dpi.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Oct 30, 2023 22:04:04 GMT
This 1d COGH triangular arrived today, quite a pleasing example with full-Hope unobstructed by a cancellation.
I post it for assistance in determining the printing and shade if possible.
The paper seems to be a crisp paper showing strong ridges or ribs which align along the right (from front) margin visible from the reverse side. Is a ribbed paper variety known for this stamp?
Also note the clarity of the watermark showing.
Scan is 1200 dpi.
Edit: add the ribbing on the back is quite pronounced, one can feel it with a fingernail tip much like with an engraved image.
edit: FWIW I am at PB printing, white paper, pale brick shade.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 4, 2023 20:06:52 GMT
I post it for assistance in determining the printing and shade if possible.
The paper seems to be a crisp paper showing strong ridges or ribs which align along the right (from front) margin visible from the reverse side. Is a ribbed paper variety known for this stamp?
edit: FWIW I am at PB printing, white paper, pale brick shade. Many thanks for your recent posts, Jeff. Thanks also for your patience. I apologize that it has taken me so long to respond properly. I needed some time to prepare composite images, and I have been occupied with work and family business over the past couple of weeks, and I just didn't get to it. But today is the day! OK, let's go through the images I have prepared below and see where it gets us. Figure 1: Comparative view of darker and lighter shades of the Brick Red color and of bluing of the paper. These stamps are from my collection, although I no longer have the one on the left, as I think I sent it to blaamand some time ago. Left: This is a good example of SG1 Pale Brick Red on Deeply Blued Paper (my ID). Right: COGH SG3a Brown Red on Slightly Blued Paper (my ID). I had originally identified this as SG3 Brick Red, but comparing it now to other examples, I thought it was brownish enough to call it SG3a Brown Red. I note that SG lists Pale Brick Red and Deep Brick Red for SG1 and SG1a, respectively, but Brick Red and Brown Red for SG3 and SG3a, respectively, so the color shades are not consistent. SG5 is listed as Brick Red on Cream-Toned Paper. Figure 2: From Fig. 1 to 2, I was trying to show decreasing levels of bluing on the backs of the three stamps: SG1, SG3a, and SG3. The scans are not as good as I had hoped in showing this, at least to my eye, but in reality, they do show a progression. Left: COGH SG3 Brick Red on Slightly Blued Paper (my ID). When this stamp is viewed with the unaided eye, the bluing is very faint, but definitely there, especially clear when shown next to a stamp without bluing. When I bought this stamp, the bluing was so faint that I thought it might be an SG5 on Cream-Toned Paper, but now that I have looked at it more closely, I don't think it is. Right: This is Jeff's stamp, but I note that his scan is much brighter than any of mine, so I decided that trying to compare these images doesn't help much. So, please see below for an adjusted image to try to account for the difference in brightness/contrast. Figure 3: These are the same stamps as in Figure 2, but I adjusted the brightness/contrast on the SG3 from my collection (left) to more closely resemble Jeff's scanned image. By doing this, it brings out the Red in the stamp at left, and makes Jeff's appear more brownish, at least to my eye. Right: Looking at the back, I think I can see very slight bluing, but it is difficult to be sure. The stamp at left appears whiter on the back than what it looks to the unaided eye, in which instance I can see faint bluing. As the printed image on this stamp can clearly be seen on the back, and the watermark is very visible, I would suggest that the paper on Jeff's stamp is thinner than that of the example at left. Figure 4: Since Jeff's stamp showed a pronounced color difference in Fig. 3, compared to my SG3, I decided to create yet another comparison. Left: COGH SG3a Brown Red. Despite the fact that this stamp looks browner when compared to my SG3, leading me to identify it as SG3a, when brightened and compared to Jeff's stamp, it appears more red! Images of the backs look more similar to me than what is shown in Fig. 3. SummaryFor starters, this is an exceptionally nice stamp, Jeff, and I congratulate you on acquiring it. My best opinion is that your stamp is most likely on faintly blued paper, making it either an SG3 or 3a, depending on the color. On the front, your stamp seems to have more brown in it than any of mine, so I would incline towards SG3a Brown Red from the SG listing options. As to whether it could be an SG5, that is a really tough one. There are multiple specialists who claim that they have never seen a genuine SG5, including Richard Debney in his Stockholmia exhibit and George James of SG during my interview with him. Richard has also mentioned other known philatelists with whom he previously worked that hold this view. Stevenson also casts doubts on the existence of SG5, because he says that the date of issue makes no sense. He says that it doesn't seem possible that Perkins Bacon would have been printing other GB stamps on paper that became blued during this same period but would have used a different process to prevent or avoid the bluing with Cape Triangles. As for the ribbed paper, I have never seen or heard of that before. Stevenson has written about extreme variability in the thickness and surface qualities of the paper, and there is apparently documentation that supports the idea that all the paper came from the same source and was made by the same process for all of the line-engraved Cape Triangles. Jeff, the best I can do is to promise you that I will keep your stamp in mind as I continue to read about these stamps, and if I ever see any mention of ribbed paper, I will let you know. Sorry for this extremely late and long post.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 4, 2023 23:49:35 GMT
Hi Chris Beryllium Guy First, thank you very much for taking the time for such an in-depth evaluation of my stamp. I shall respond to many points over the coming days, but in the meantime I have scanned my meager 1-penny collection for your (and any one else's) viewing. A couple of these we have discussed and perhaps agreed on the shades. I wanted to have an online record of where I am with these for my benefit as well. The stamp without a tag beneath is the stamp in question. It is obvious to me that 1-penny shades can be just as challenging, if not more so, than the 4-pence blues. You have added a wonderful dimension to my collecting interest these past couple of years with these triangulars, for which I am so grateful. Jeff Scanned at 1200 dpi
|
|