JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 5, 2023 17:16:30 GMT
Beryllium Guy - Hi Chris, if it is true that SG5 brick red/cream toned paper cannot or does not exist, then given that the stamp in question is certainly not a rose or deep rose red, then by exclusion, it must be brick red or brown red on slightly blued paper? Unless, of course, it is a DLR printing. Jeff
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 5, 2023 17:26:20 GMT
That's a nice grouping of 1d Cape Triangles, JeffS. Beautiful quality copies to my eye.... very well done to you! Thanks for your kind response regarding my post from yesterday. I gave it a shot, but for the time invested, I was not fully satisfied by the results. The brightness of your scanned image seems quite good to me, and much different (better?) than those from my scanner. I don't want to de-rail our Cape Triangles thread, so I will make a post in a thread about scanner settings to try to figure out if my scanner is calibrated correctly or if I should be looking to adjust the settings. I also note your comment about 1d Cape Triangles being challenging for identification, and I agree with you. Both the 1d and 4d denominations are challenging, for sure. As there were more 4d stamps printed, I would probably argue that there will be more varieties simply due to the relative volumes. Edit: I checked the relative volumes for PB printings, and it is actually closer than I thought: 4d: 7 million and 1d: 5.8 million, a difference of about 20%. For DLR printings, the volumes were virtually the same, at about 1.2 million of each denomination [1]. Anyway, I agree with you that the Cape Triangles are fascinating. They have grabbed my attention in a way that no other stamps really have, which is something I never really expected. And honestly, Jeff, your interest in the Cape Triangles, coupled with others like Alex ( vikingeck) and Jim ( jkjblue) has been great for me, as it has further increased my interest, and it has given me that many more opportunities to examine more stamps than I would have ever been able to do on my own. Thanks for that!
[1] Stevenson, D. Alan. The Triangular Stamps of Cape of Good Hope. H.R. Harmer Ltd., London, 1950.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 5, 2023 17:36:59 GMT
Regarding my 1d triangular, the listing on the online auction venue I found it on simply stated cape of CAPE OF GOOD HOPE - NUDE - NUDES as the listing title, and the description was CAPE TRIANGLE. USED
The item also included a fragment of an album page with the text: "The vague image it projects into the mind is not of a huddled and defenseless body, but of a balanced. prosperous, and confident body: the body reformed."
Crazy.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 5, 2023 17:43:03 GMT
Beryllium Guy - Hi Chris, if it is true that SG5 brick red/cream toned paper cannot or does not exist, then given that the stamp in question is certainly not a rose or deep rose red, then by exclusion, it must be brick red or brown red on slightly blued paper? Unless, of course, it is a DLR printing. Yes, I agree with the premise of your statement: "If it is true...." To my mind, the question is, do we know if this is true? I feel pretty confident that SG must have found examples of stamps that fit this description at some point in time, otherwise, why would there be a catalogue listing for it in the first place? We know from looking at stamps printed on paper which has become blued that the bluing can be extremely faint. For the PB 6d Slate shades (SG7c-7d), for example, we know that these are printed on paper that became blued. Yet, Stevenson writes that it is known that some copies show no evidence of bluing, and this seems to be considered as an accepted truth, because I have seen dealer offerings of these stamps that state no bluing is evident. So, if we can accept that SG7c-7d are printed on blued paper, but some examples just don't show it, why shouldn't that also be possible for the 1d and 4d issues printed on paper that became blued? I have never read or heard of anyone making this assertion, but I don't see why it couldn't be true. michael , any comment about this based on your research of PB printings and bluing of the paper? Coming back to the SG5: My best guess about this situation is that only a couple of examples have been found, but they are very few and far between, hence the reason why current specialists are doubting their existence, coupled with Stevenson's comments. And perhaps those few copies haven't surfaced anytime lately. Further complicating the issue is that I do not know how to judge the difference between when paper is not blued at all versus when it has become blued so faintly that I cannot see it. As it happens, I have an example of what I think could be an SG5, but it is difficult for me to be sure about it. I posted about it 1-2 years ago, and Jim and Alex both commented that they thought they could still see extremely faint bluing. So, who knows?
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 5, 2023 20:58:33 GMT
Arrived today, this 3-margin example of the dark blue DLR woolly printing with a nearly clear figure of Hope and a moderate but readable BONC "3" of Grahamstown. Many thanks for this post, Jeff, and sorry for my slow response on this one, too. As I told you in private correspondence, I think that there is a pretty good chance that this stamp is not a DLR print (SG19/19a), but rather a PB print that is a color changeling due to sulfuretting. There is also an additional feature of your stamp that adds to the impression of a DLR print, which I will describe below. Figure 1: Left: Jeff's stamp IDed as DLR print, due to dark blue (indigo?) color, light patchiness in the engine-turned background, and BONC postmark (introduced in 1864, so more often found on DLR prints than PB ones). At first glance, I was inclined to accept this ID, but after looking more closely at the color, I noticed a couple of things that I had seen before on a stamp of mine (right). The red arrows point to small areas of brighter blue, similar to the PB shades, especially above the lettering "FOUR" and in the details and shading of the figure of Hope. Right: Brightened image of an SG4 from my collection that I had originally thought was a DLR print, too, until I discovered that it was lightly blued on the back. That got me to looking more closely at the front, and then after seeing numerous examples from Jim ( jkjblue), I realized that the stamp was discolored due to sulfuretting. The other unusual feature in Jeff's stamp that gives the impression of a DLR print, is that in the area circled in red, the relatively light BONC bars darken those areas compared to the spaces in between the bars, resembling light patchiness in the engine-turned background, a feature found in some DLR prints and generally not seen in PB prints to my knowledge. Of course, the BONC postmark is also generally an indicator of a DLR print, but it is not an absolute, as older PB stamps were still valid for postage after 1864 and could have also been cancelled with a BONC. Figure 2: A more general side-by-side comparison of the scanned images from above (left and middle), and then also showing the SG4 with its clear PB blue color after a 1-minute treatment in 3% hydrogen peroxide solution. The middle and right images were originally used in the article I wrote about DLR 4d Cape Triangles last year. SummaryI can't really draw an absolute conclusion here, but I think that it is possible, even likely, that Jeff's stamp is actually a heavily sulfuretted PB print (SG6-6a) rather than a DLR print (SG19-19a). A possible way to reveal if this is true would be to soak the stamp in 3% peroxide for a minute or two to see if the color starts to change. In my experience, and to the best of my knowledge, I have never seen a sulfuretted DLR print. Additionally, in the study that Stan ( stainlessb) conducted and that he and I wrote about in the last TSF Newsletter, soaking classic stamps, including Cape Triangles, in 3% peroxide for up to 10 minutes is safe. But this is Jeff's stamp, not mine or anyone else's, so it is totally up to him to decide if he wants to test my theory or not. Jeff, I think that once again, this a very nice full-margin stamp, and you are to be congratulated on acquiring it. That said, for the reasons stated, I am not sure if it is actually a DLR print as originally supposed.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 6, 2023 1:15:11 GMT
Beryllium Guy Chris, here are before and after of that 4d triangular, before on top. The after is the result of a 5-minute dip in H2O2. I sense a lightening of the blue tint in the white margins but that's it. I appreciate your logic and reasoning so cordially presented, but I remain unconvinced that this is a PB printing. Jeff
The original bulge at the bottom was irksome to me so I trimmed it flat.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 6, 2023 21:57:22 GMT
Many thanks for your follow-up post, JeffS I totally understand your thinking on this, and we will just agree to disagree about the ID of this stamp. In fact, in looking at your "after" scan of the stamp, post-peroxide treatment, it looks to me as if there is now more of the bright blue showing, which is consistent with my opinion. I suspect that if you kept soaking it, more and more of the brighter blue color would reveal itself. But all of that is neither here nor there. In the end, it's your stamp, so it's up to you. P.S. I think your trimming of the bottom margin is indeed an improvement to the appearance, but I note that specialists like Richard Debney advocate never trimming Cape Triangles. I don't necessarily think it's a wrong move. What I have taken to doing lately is digitally cropping the images to make the stamps look better when I post images or include images in an article. In any case, it is another very nice stamp in your collection.... bravo!
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 7, 2023 18:27:53 GMT
To add to the 1d color discussion, this is what I have. Possibly the full range of the PBs, but very much open to opinions here - the SG5 pair especially. (The bottom left stamp has a paper join of some kind - not a crease) Re: JeffS previous comment on 1d: The paper seems to be a crisp paper showing strong ridges or ribs which align along the right (from front) margin visible from the reverse side. Is a ribbed paper variety known for this stamp? I was wondering if that was glue/regluing that had inadvertently been added to a used stamp. Images in follow-on post.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 7, 2023 19:42:46 GMT
The images – Tentatively, SG 1, SG 1a, SG 3, SG 3a, SG 5(?), SG 5a, SG 5b
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 7, 2023 22:40:56 GMT
wm I attempted a response on my iPad then lost it. I shall wait until later when I can get to my office and desktop. We have house guests for a few days which bites into my free time. Jeff
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 8, 2023 1:48:22 GMT
Certainly no urgency JeffS . And thanks for your initial look. Color is always challenging to figure out – I think with the stamps here, the bluing is quite distinct, so the identification is more certain with those ones. Regarding, Chris' Beryllium Guy comment about trimming. I thought I saw somewhere that Richard Debney mentioned that he had ended up with stamps in his collection that were 'philatelically cut' by others. There is some debate here: www.stampboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=38952It certainly is very tempting, as appearance is very easily improved with very minor trimming. I've certainly looked at some of mine with thoughts of scissors, but kept restrained. It is a balance between 'as history made them', and historical value, versus the aesthetic difference between a balanced and off balanced stamp. If a stamp has faults such as thinning or a tear, maybe to justify keeping it?
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 8, 2023 16:48:30 GMT
Many thanks for your nice posts, Warren ( wm ). Your stamps look great! SG5 Brick Red on Cream-Toned PaperI am very impressed to see the SG5 pair, which at least at a glance, does indeed appear to be on cream-toned paper. I think that the similar appearance of the backs of the SG5 pair (existence disputed by some) and the SG5a Rose Red on cream-toned paper speaks highly in favor of your pair's being correctly identified as SG5. That is, of course, just my opinion, and others are welcome. Trimming of Cape TrianglesThanks for the link to the Stamp Boards discussion. I had read this some time ago. Yes, I recalled correctly that Richard Debney and others expressed horror and similar degrees of negative emotions that anyone would trim one of these stamps nowadays. I am a bit on the fence about this. I feel that I can understand both perspectives on this issue. In the early going, I did trim one of my Cape Triangles. It had an irregular shaped bit hanging off one corner, and I thought it really detracted from the appearance, plus the hanging bit meant it couldn't sit level in my Hagner stock sheet. So, I carefully trimmed off the small bit. At this point, I can't even remember which stamp it was. Since then, I have been a bit hesitant to do any more trimming, although I do have a couple of candidates in my collection that would look better if trimmed. For those, I have satisfied the urge by scanning them and then digitally trimming the image for posting or including in an article. That has worked for me, and I have actually considered doing a write-up at some point about how I have learned to create these digitally trimmed images. I can also do digital repairs, which is even more fun!
In any case, thanks again for posting your stamps, Warren, and congratulations especially on your SG5 pair. They look great to me, regardless of what the skeptics may say!
|
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,295
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Nov 8, 2023 19:19:28 GMT
If I may apologise for being nit-picky critical, but I am going to question your SG1 pairs wm . The hoary debate about degrees of bluing , which SG arbitrarily uses to separate SG1 and SG3for the Cape but ignores for the contemporary Penny reds of GB , strikes again. Certainly your square and lozenge pairs show bluing, but as I hunt for a really deeply blue example to match some of my Penny reds, I challenge that they are blue enough for SG1 Here are the best two I have found so far [
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 8, 2023 20:59:14 GMT
Thanks vikingeck . Nit-picking welcome! I was edged towards declaring the top two deeply blued on the basis of the color on the front – which seemed to fit better with the color descriptions. The bluing on 1d's is certainly less definitive than the 4d's. The bluing is certainly quite streaky on mine - and bluing affects the color on the front as well. I agree that both your lovely examples are deeply blued, and SG1. They look to be quite similar in color on the front. I've scanned two additional stamps (top row) from my collection that are blued, and included the original scan of the other blued stamps shared previously. On row 1, I'm going with the pencil marked 3a on the left (brown-red), which would mean the right hand stamp is brick red, based on similar slight blueing. I'm open to suggestions on rows 2/3 which now have question marks. Just to confirm the SG options for color: SG1, pale brick-red, deeply blued SG 1a, deep brick-red, deeply blued SG 3, brick-red, slightly blued SG3a, brown-red, slightly blued If they are all slightly blued paper, then it will be good to figure out which are brick-red, and which are brown-red. However, it looks to me that they don't all fit into one or other of those colors. Thanks Chris Beryllium Guy for your throughts on the SG5 pair. It has been interesting to put all the color variations together to attempt to figure out where each sits on the color spectrum. It is nice to think that the pair may be an elusive example. And good to read your further thoughts on trimming!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 8, 2023 21:55:08 GMT
wm , finally a few minutes to attend to your original scans and the square pair of alleged SG5s. On both my desktop monitor and iPad, when comparing shades of your square pair SG55 and horiz pair of SG3 above it, to my eye the square pair is more rosy than the horiz pair. If that is the case, then both cannot be the brick red. Which brings me to a point to ponder, is the determination of whether a stamp is SG5, is more about the paper or the shade? These differences are so subtle. The best examples I find for the brick red are those on noticeable blued paper which makes me wonder if the bluing affects the perception of "brick red" and if it is indeed the same on a whiter paper. It is a lovely square pair, whatever it is.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 8, 2023 21:58:32 GMT
wm Looking at your new images, on the back of the square pair I can see definite bluing. Is that the same pair?
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 8, 2023 22:00:53 GMT
It's not the same pair, JeffS The possible SG5 pair is not shown in the latest scans. The latest are only those exhibiting bluing.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 8, 2023 22:27:18 GMT
Beryllium Guy . Sorry for the confusion. It is not the same pair. I removed the row with the SG5, SG5a, and also the row below it with the SG5b.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 8, 2023 22:59:52 GMT
No problem, Warren ( wm) I recognized immediately that it was not the same pair. It was JeffS who was asking. I was just responding to him.
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 10,020
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Nov 11, 2023 0:07:04 GMT
Henceforward, have a new interest in the Capes. Just received my first result, from my Genealogist, in Somerset, England My Great, great, Grandfather, was serving on board HMS Maidstone, throughout 1831 after returning from service down the west coast of Africa. 1828> He was in Capetown throughout 1831 (Simon's Bay) HMS Maidstone After languishing in London for several years, at the end of 1823 HMS Maidstone was reported to be fitting out for a new mission, joining Sir Charles Bullen's squadron on the West African Station in Freetown. (Sierra Leone) Her mission was to stop the Atlantic slave trade.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 11, 2023 18:13:48 GMT
Nice to read the your interesting history rod222 Thank you all, for your comments and insights on the 1d's. Adding to the color conundrums, this time 6d's. In particular the example on the top right. My ID's, anticlockwise, are deep rose lilac (SG7b) white paper, slate lilac (SG7c) blued paper. All that is left for the top right stamp is SG7d, slate purple, blued paper. But this one seems way too blue to me, and not purple. It came as part of an old collection, and wasn't sold as a particular variation. Thoughts.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 11, 2023 18:48:58 GMT
Many thanks for your post, Warren ( wm) First of all, nice stamps! Second of all, I would caution you against using the process of elimination to determine color-shade for varieties for Cape Triangles. There are so many different shades and print clarities of all issues, that it is not a reasonable way to go about things. Just because you have three different shades, and you feel confident about two of them, isn't really a sound justification for concluding that the other one must be the missing shade. Buy three more 6d PB Cape Triangles, and you may well end up with six different shades! On top of that, the SG7d Slate Purple is another one of those catalogue-listed shades for which specialists like Richard Debney have declared that they have never seen a convincing example that they would consider genuine, similar to SG5. In this case, there are a handful of certified examples pictured in the Maxwell Joseph Collection Auction Catalogue from 1983. Unfortunately, those images are not the best, and I didn't find them overly helpful. I am headed out shortly, but I will respond further to this later this weekend, probably tomorrow. In the meantime, please have a look earlier in this thread: thestampforum.boards.net/post/158732/threadWe had a detailed discussion about 6d PB printings last December, and you can see quite a bit of info there. Please peruse those posts for now, and I will come back to yours tomorrow. My main point is that there any many, many color-shade varieties of these stamps, and I think you will start to see that from the earlier posts.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 11, 2023 19:45:47 GMT
My first unused triangular arrived yesterday, a four pence, and it is a beauty with "large part original gum" according to the BPA cert that accompanies the stamp (31st July, 2023) which identifies it as "DLR printing (SG19a)".
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 11, 2023 20:03:51 GMT
Thanks so much for the insightful observations Beryllium Guy , and for highlighting and referencing the previous discussion. Agreed that a process of elimination is not always the best strategy. Especially the 6d's which have many shades due to environmental factors among others. From a few others I have, they do seem to group somewhat readily into the various shades. So in the present scan, the (presumed) deep rose lilac and (presumed) slate rose lilac seem to have close similarities others I have. The slate lilac, as you note, is quite challenging as they look different under different lighting conditions. When I look under yellower room lighting, they seem to show a hint of lilac. Under an led light and magnifier, they seem to be more slate and the lilac doesn't seem to show much. I think the main feature of the mystery 6d is that it is not like any other I've seen, including looking online at variations, and the Maxwell collection images (although those are not that clear in general). I don't think particularly think it is a slate purple. More that of the color options, it is far apart from anything else. It does appear to be blued on the back – and SG offers either slate lilac or slate purple. If not blued on the back, there are more directions to go, but still no easily places to consider. Possibly something happened to the stamp along its history environmentally or by hand, but it seems like an outlier, one way or the other.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 11, 2023 20:05:04 GMT
Your 4d is a beauty JeffS!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 11, 2023 20:52:54 GMT
On both my desktop monitor and iPad, when comparing shades of your square pair SG55 and horiz pair of SG3 above it, to my eye the square pair is more rosy than the horiz pair. If that is the case, then both cannot be the brick red. Can you overlap the square pair on the rectangular pair so that the section that says POSTAGE and the more solid area in front of hope can be compared?
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 11, 2023 20:58:12 GMT
DLR question, those who are into these, can you confirm from this image that this is a DLR print?
EDIT, It's not mine and I don't think so.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 11, 2023 21:17:49 GMT
wm - re your three 6d stamps, heck, if I can't tell the diff between brick red and brown red, I am hardly qualified to offer an opinion on these three stamps. Nice copies too.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
Member is Online
|
Post by JeffS on Nov 11, 2023 21:25:05 GMT
Here are my three 6-penny examples. Color is terrible through the holders. disregard the pencil notation on the middle stamp. My brain was in flux at the time.
|
|
wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
|
Post by wm on Nov 11, 2023 22:24:44 GMT
On both my desktop monitor and iPad, when comparing shades of your square pair SG55 and horiz pair of SG3 above it, to my eye the square pair is more rosy than the horiz pair. If that is the case, then both cannot be the brick red. Can you overlap the square pair on the rectangular pair so that the section that says POSTAGE and the more solid area in front of hope can be compared? Hi JeffS . Thanks for your continued review of these stamps. The blueing on the SG3s likely contributes to variations in brick red. I put them all together. Hope this helps. Nice to see the blue cancel on your 6d!
|
|