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Nemo
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Posts: 8
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Post by Nemo on Nov 18, 2023 15:38:46 GMT
The album page notes earlier in this thread are incorrect to show SG 5a as rose on cream-toned paper, and SG 5b as deep rose-red on cream-toned paper. No such stamps exist. As shown in the Gibbons Commonwealth catalogue, only the 1857 brick-red shade was printed on cream-toned paper : the 1858 rose and deep rose shades were on white. The footnotes after SG 8 expand on this : "The paper of No.5 is similar to that of Nos.1/4 but is without the blueing. It is much thicker than the white paper used for later printings of the 1d. The evolution of the paper on these COGH stamps is similar to that of the line-engraved issues of Great Britain. Examples of the 6d slate-lilac apparently on white paper have had the blueing washed out". Identification of the triangles is hindered by Gibbons' inexplicable omission of several of their catalogued shades (including brick-red) from their own company's colour-key product. This is my comparison photo which I use when browsing stamps for sale ; these are/were all certificated examples. The brick-red shade has a very distinctive orangey tone, and is very rare. There are many stamps on Ebay wrongly listed as brick-red, often by dealers. Unfortunately the large difference in CVs creates an incentive to mis-identify. ROB (triangles collector for 40+ years)
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JeffS
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Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Nov 18, 2023 22:27:07 GMT
Nemo - welcome to the COGH Triangulars thread and for your post. I look forward to learning more about your COGH triangulars as you find time.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 19, 2023 6:14:51 GMT
The album page notes earlier in this thread are incorrect to show SG 5a as rose on cream-toned paper, and SG 5b as deep rose-red on cream-toned paper. No such stamps exist. As shown in the Gibbons Commonwealth catalogue, only the 1857 brick-red shade was printed on cream-toned paper : the 1858 rose and deep rose shades were on white. The footnotes after SG 8 expand on this : "The paper of No.5 is similar to that of Nos.1/4 but is without the blueing. It is much thicker than the white paper used for later printings of the 1d. The evolution of the paper on these COGH stamps is similar to that of the line-engraved issues of Great Britain. Examples of the 6d slate-lilac apparently on white paper have had the blueing washed out". Identification of the triangles is hindered by Gibbons' inexplicable omission of several of their catalogued shades (including brick-red) from their own company's colour-key product. This is my comparison photo which I use when browsing stamps for sale ; these are/were all certificated examples. The brick-red shade has a very distinctive orangey tone, and is very rare. There are many stamps on Ebay wrongly listed as brick-red, often by dealers. Unfortunately the large difference in CVs creates an incentive to mis-identify. ROB (triangles collector for 40+ years) Greetings, Rob, and welcome to the discussion on Cape Triangles! Thank you very much for your post. Rob, as you have many years collecting Cape Triangles, I would like to ask if you have ever read the Stevenson book. Are you familiar with it? On the subject of the paper and its coloration, Stevenson wrote this: Have you never read or heard this before? In my experience, there are many varieties of Cape Triangles, whether for printed color shade, paper thickness/color, or print clarity, that are not listed in SG or any catalogue for that matter. Yet, they exist. One can easily find many instances of two stamps that qualify as the same catalogue number based on the description but that actually look very different from one another in reality. If one takes the SG Catalogue listing literally, then your point is completely accurate. On the other hand, if we accept that "white" paper is only white in not being blued, as Stevenson wrote, then all sorts of color shades are possible. In which case, it is quite possible that SG5a and SG5b can also exist on so-called "white" paper, that is only white in not being blued, meaning that cream-toned is also a possibility, as well as other tones. Stevenson also wrote that it is possible that the paper was truly white in color in the 1850s, but by the time he was writing his book in the 1940s, the paper could have discolored with age. To my knowledge, there are no first-hand accounts commenting on the whiteness of the paper back when it was freshly made, so we have no way to be certain so many years after the fact. In addition, there is documented evidence that the paper used for all printings of the line-engraved Cape Triangles was made by the same producer using the same process over the entire life of the production, including the stamps printed by De La Rue (PB was required to turn over the anchor-watermarked paper as well as the printing plates when they lost the contract), so the note in the SG Catalogue about an evolution in the paper would not seem to be accurate. What do you think? Anything in there that fits with your experience?
Quote Reference: Stevenson, D. Alan. The Triangular Stamps of Cape of Good Hope. H.R. Harmer Ltd., London, 1950, p. 92.
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JeffS
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Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Nov 19, 2023 14:08:47 GMT
I recently added this 4d pair to my collection, an exceptional pair with huge margins as well as SIDEWAYS watermark which is driving me crazy trying to see it. I know its location is centered on the area between the stamps, half on one and half on the other. Given that it can't be seen in the usual centered location if the watermark was normal, then by exclusion it must be sideways??
The darkening of the stamp and paper at bottom left id due to poor photography lighting.
Improved image
Photographing the back proved of no value.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 19, 2023 14:53:25 GMT
Thanks for your post, JeffS . It's a beautiful pair, to be sure! There is a separate thread dedicated to the Cape Triangle watermarks here: thestampforum.boards.net/thread/9179/cape-good-hope-watermarks-paperThere is already quite a bit of info there. Perhaps you will find something there that will help you. Have you tried using watermark fluid with this pair yet? I agree that I cannot see any indication of the watermarks, either sideways or upright on the photo of the back of the pair. You wrote: I suppose the answer to your question is yes, assuming that the watermark is there in the first place. There are apparently stamps known without any watermark due to the breaking off of the wire device used to create the watermark. As you have a pair, however, that should mean that the watermarks are there somewhere, even if shifted from their ideal locations. By the way, there was an excellent article about Cape Triangle watermarks that was reprinted in the Cape & Natal Philatelic Journal (CNPJ) last year. You may want to read that to get a fuller picture on the watermark situation.
Edit: I also note that someone wrote their initials on the back of the pair, right on top of the area where one of the watermarks should be, if they are sideways. That doesn't help with seeing the watermark!
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Nov 19, 2023 17:39:46 GMT
Hi Chris Beryllium Guy for your response. Thank you for the article suggestions, the first of which I did go to. The second the reprint in the Journal had been forgotten which I was glad to review again.
You asked if I had tried to watermark the stamps and yes I did, but a rather half-measure attempt I must admit. I have always been able to wmk a stamp on a black approval card, which I did with this pair, but to no avail. At your prompting I scrounged a black dish from the cabinet, and doused it aggressively in fluid.
Lo and behold, it popped like a knuckle! I was able to photo it and the result is posted here. Jeff
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 19, 2023 19:41:43 GMT
That looks great, JeffS.... Nice work! Sideways watermark is confirmed. Nice photo, too. Shows exactly what you would want to see. You should keep a copy of that photo wherever you keep supporting info for your stamps or other philatelic material, since the watermark is almost impossible to see without using fluid. Stay watermark stampy, all!
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Nov 20, 2023 0:37:48 GMT
A most excellent suggestion.
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wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
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Post by wm on Nov 20, 2023 16:07:52 GMT
Sideways watermarks are quite challenging to see. It took a while to see this one on a 4d - helped with photo enhancement - on one side at least.
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Post by l8u7se on Nov 25, 2023 21:35:02 GMT
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 25, 2023 23:59:20 GMT
Stamp researching is beginning to take over my life. For my next mission…. Trying to work out information about these cape of good hopes if anyone has some interest/information that you would be kind enough to share so I know where to focus looking that would be very much appreciated: You are realising what stamp collecting is all about! it's fabulous !
It has led to me, after 20 or so years, to research my family tree ($1000) and to find I am related to a Black Sailor from the West Indies 1788
Indeed Stanley Gibbons, came from the same town, my relatives did, (and still do) of Plymouth Devon. He started it all by buying a bag of "Cape Triangles" from a sailor.He may have even handled yours
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 26, 2023 6:12:07 GMT
For my next mission…. Trying to work out information about these cape of good hopes if anyone has some interest/information that you would be kind enough to share so I know where to focus looking that would be very much appreciated Many thanks for your post! If I understood your intro post correctly, you were gifted these stamps, right? Well, all I can say is that the original collector must have been a person of means and good judgement when it came to stamps. These that you have shown all look to be premium examples of Cape Triangles. Also, thank you very much for posting images of both the fronts and backs of these stamps.... that's very helpful for proper identification. Do you have a catalogue for reference? If you need one, please contact me by PM, and I will help you to get something you can use. Here are my opinions on what it looks like you have: - 1-Penny: SG5a Rose or SG5b Deep Rose Red, unused
- 4-Pence: SG6 Deep Blue, unused, and it appears to be sulfuretted, mainly on the left side
- 6-Pence: SG7 Pale Rose Lilac, postally used
- 1-Shilling: SG21 Bright Emerald Green, postally used
The 1-Shilling might also be an SG8 Bright Yellow Green, but it looks like it could be the less common Emerald shade. If I am right that it is an SG21, it is an XF used copy. Very nice indeed. I also notice that all four of these stamps have full margins, which is not common for Cape Triangles, either. I hope this helps. If you need a catalogue for reference, please send me a PM. All of the above are just my opinions, and as always, others are welcome to add theirs!
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Nov 27, 2023 22:20:23 GMT
l8u7se That is a nice selection of triangulars. I am unable to guess a shade of the lovely shilling item. Color is so manipulative with camera and software, not that you have tried to manipulate Lighting can burn out a more solid color to a weaker shade. If these were mine I would first give all a 5-minute soak in 3% hydrogen peroxide available at most any druggist. This would clear up any sulfuretting on the 4d for sure and freshen-up the others as well as soaking off those darn hinges on the backs. If you are unfamiliar with hydrogen peroxide or soaking and drying stamps there are several threads addressing these procedures. Congratulations on having 4 really nice examples, esp the shilling green. Could you post an image of that value taken under less intense lighting? JeffS
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Post by l8u7se on Nov 28, 2023 0:18:03 GMT
JeffS I am afraid these are the best photos I have available at the moment: Does it help determine which one it may be? I’m not at a stage yet that I dare to do anything with them and liquid haha… who knows with time
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Dec 13, 2023 22:15:56 GMT
Here is my latest and likely last COGH triangular, a 4d with a CAPE TOWN MR 18 65 dated CDS postmark/cancel.
The margins do leave a "bit" to be desired, but my searches indicate that CDS dated examples are quite scarce, perhaps scarcer than a colored cancel. The color is true in the image to the actual item.
Described by the seller as SG19 Deep Blue.
And here is the stamp with an H2O2 bath...
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,635
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Dec 13, 2023 22:35:15 GMT
Here is my latest and likely last COGH triangular, a 4d with a CAPE TOWN MR 18 65 dated CDS postmark/cancel.
Good luck Jeff with it's being the last. We have all been there.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 16, 2023 19:43:37 GMT
Many thanks for your nice post, JeffS, and sorry for my slow reaction. Well, all I can say is that if it is indeed your last Cape Triangle acquisition, you are finishing on a high note.... going out with a bang, as it were! In my experience, it is very uncommon to find Cape Triangles with postal circular date stamps (CDS). Many of the examples that exist with CDS-type cancels are actually fiscal marks (often misdescribed as postmarks), but yours is clearly postal, so very well done to you! OK, now the bit you probably aren't going to like: I think that this stamp is another example of a sulfuretted PB print (SG6-6a), rather than an SG19-19a. Sorry, as I know we don't always agree on this point. In this example, I can once again see traces of the original brighter PB blue color, which is why I think that. I imagine that I must sound like a broken record by claiming that I am constantly seeing sulfuretting in stamps that sellers are describing as DLR prints, but there you have it. Regardless, that doesn't detract in any way from the beautiful CDS postmark on your stamp, which is a rare example, indeed!
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 16, 2023 19:53:38 GMT
l8u7se : Thanks for your additional post. The images are still not really clean enough to determine which 1-shilling stamp you have there. I will say that the last image now makes it look more like an SG8 bright yellow green rather than the SG21 bright emerald, at least to me. But as JeffS very astutely points out, lighting during photography makes a big difference in how the colors appear, as does, of course, the display that the recipient of the image uses for viewing it. Too many variables at work without another stamp of known color in the same image for comparison (just my opinion). In that case, I would incline toward stating that yours is most likely an SG8 bright yellow green example, since that is the more common between SG8 and SG21, and therefore, the more likely ID. In any case, it is an exceptionally nice stamp, with large margins all around and a very light, unobtrusive cancel. It's a real beauty! Congratulations!
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Dec 17, 2023 1:01:37 GMT
Beryllium Guy OK Chris. Here is a 4d offered as a DLR. To me the bright blue shade is more in keeping with PB, not DLR. Can we agree on this assessment?
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Dec 17, 2023 1:34:39 GMT
Beryllium Guy Chris, you might note I said that stamp was offered as a DLR, not that it was. I have subsequently "bathed" it and here is a most accurate image. And Yes, I agree, it is a PB, not DLR, not that it mattered to me when I bought it. I was too enthralled with the CDS cancel to care about printings.
I will post this image with the original post for comparison.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 17, 2023 2:22:50 GMT
Right you are, JeffS! Sorry for figuring that you must have been accepting the seller's description, since you didn't make any comment to the contrary. Shame on me. At the very least, I am glad that my opinion didn't end up resulting in any disappointment on your part in your purchase. It is a truly uncommon item. In fact, I can't actually recall seeing one of these 1865 CDS postmarks on a Cape Triangle before. There may be a few out there somewhere, but I think this is a really rare item. I think you have a real knack for finding rare or unusual postmarks on these stamps, considering the other items you have also found (red and blue cancels). Thanks also for doing the peroxide treatment and posting the results, the changes in which I agree confirm that it is a PB print. But yes, your point is well taken, which is that it is the CDS postmark that matters, not whether the Triangle is a PB or DLR print. Once again, well done to you, and congratulations on a fabulous find!
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Dec 17, 2023 2:31:07 GMT
Beryllium Guy I appreciate that, thank you. Do you have in your records the date of the first DLR printing, and while I am asking, the earliest known date of a 4d DLR use?
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 17, 2023 2:37:18 GMT
Beryllium Guy OK Chris. Here is a 4d offered as a DLR. To me the bright blue shade is more in keeping with PB, not DLR. Can we agree on this assessment?
(See earlier post for image.) I find this to be a tough one, Jeff. I have a stamp like this one, too, and it is one of the only ones in my accumulation, which I have never definitively identified one way or the other. I absolutely see your point about the color, and why you would say PB print. On the other hand, depending on which one of my devices I use to look at the image, on one it looks more like a PB blue, but on the other, it looks darker and more like a DLR print. I am honestly on the fence on this one. The only solace I can take in this is that even Stevenson wrote that he found a few stamps that he could not definitively place as either PB or DLR prints. Boy, I sure wish he had captured images of those! That would have been really interesting....
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 17, 2023 2:56:50 GMT
Do you have in your records the date of the first DLR printing, and while I am asking, the earliest known date of a 4d DLR use? Thanks for your follow-up post, Jeff. In going back to Stevenson, he has compiled a table on p.104, which shows the dates of receipt of the stamps at the GPO in Cape Town. For the DLR prints, the first shipment was received in March, 1863 and the last one in June, 1864. This means that the first DLR stamps would have been printed late in 1862, as it took about 3 months for the stamps to go from London to Cape Town. As for earliest date of usage, Stevenson mentions on p.100 that covers exist showing usage of DLR 4d stamps in February 1864. That said, he does not specifically cite an earliest known usage date that I could find. There is a graph on p.106 of Stevenson that plots supply curves for Triangles and "probable consumpt(ion)" in the Cape Colony, but I don't see how to determine earliest usage from that, either.
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Dec 18, 2023 0:11:19 GMT
Hi Chris Beryllium Guy Thank you for the prompt answers. Very helpful to me. Been a bizzy day. Jeff
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,627
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jan 3, 2024 2:22:42 GMT
I guess I lied
Beryllium Guy Hi Chris, this is the stamp we last discussed, (Dec 16, 2023 at 7:01pm) one which was unidentifiable as to printer. Does this photo, now that I have it, make a decision any easier? I have not yet had time to bathe it.
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,635
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Jan 3, 2024 3:17:47 GMT
I guess I lied
Beryllium Guy Hi Chris, this is the stamp we last discussed, (Dec 16, 2023 at 7:01pm) one which was unidentifiable as to printer. Does this photo, now that I have it, make a decision any easier? I have not yet had tie to bathe it. I rest my case.
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wm
**Member**
Posts: 32
What I collect: Cape of Good Hope, Natal, Transvaal
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Post by wm on Jan 3, 2024 16:33:00 GMT
Expertizing query:
I have a few higher value and/or unusual Cape triangulars that I would like to have expertized. Being located in the US, what are the recommended options for expertizing? I'd be interested in hearing about experiences regarding timeframes, return processes and insurance, as well as reflections on rationale for expertizing.
Happy New Year to all on the group.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 3, 2024 18:02:52 GMT
JeffS Many thanks for your follow-up on this interesting stamp! Truthfully, I am still on the fence about it. Any chance you would be willing to take a photo of it alongside your best example of a PB 4d blue? I would like to see it that way for a side-by-side comparison. Warren ( wm ) Thanks for your post. According to SG in London, BPA is considered the best expertizing services provider for Cape Triangles. That said, I have not yet had the chance to try them out, so no personal experience there to refer to. I have been toying with the idea of using them, but I am a bit nervous about shipping my most prized stamps all over the place. I am planning to go to the UK this summer, so I might take my material with me, and then try to get it to BPA. If I recall correctly, BPA uses a PO box for submissions, so I don't think it's normally possible to deliver items by any other means than using the mail. I really need to get in touch with them to see if I can determine if there are any options that seem more secure to me. And even if I could get my items to them securely, I would be concerned about a package back from the UK being held up in US Customs, which seems to have become a black hole in the last few years. It's a bit of a conundrum there, I think. But you asked about expertizing services for being based in the US. I have used the APS service before (APEX), but it wasn't for Cape Triangles. The last time was several years ago, and the service itself seemed OK to me, but I don't know who they have on Cape Triangles. At one point a few years ago, I found a certificate for a Cape Triangle in the APEX database that indicated it was genuine when it was clearly a common forgery. APEX has since corrected the cert for that particular stamp, but I have been mistrustful of their capabilities with respect to Cape Triangles ever since. Another consideration should also be whether the determination on a stamp is being made by a single person, or a group of more than one "expert" that needs to be in agreement in order to arrive at a decision. I can imagine points in favor of both possible paths, depending on how you see the world! My old Dad used to say that "a camel is a horse designed by a committee," with the idea that group projects based on consensus decision-making sometimes yield muddled results. I would also comment that most of the certificates on Cape Triangles that I have seen that appear problematic (in my opinion!) have been rendered by individuals rather than groups. There was one very well-respected US-based dealer, now deceased, who certified a number of Cape Triangles that I have always thought were flat-out wrong. I am willing to discuss that by PM or private email, if desired. Bottom line: I don't currently know of a US-based expertizing source for Cape Triangles that I trust. As a general observation, we must always keep in mind that even expertizing certificates are, in the end, only opinions, not unlike a medical diagnosis. In difficult cases, it may be possible to get as many different opinions as there are reviewers of the item. And while it's always nice to have others tell us what we want to hear, I suppose we have to be aware that sometimes, that may be exactly what they are doing. As you can see, I am still deeply conflicted on this subject!
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