|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 29, 2022 15:54:03 GMT
OK, so all of that said, and bearing the subjectivity aspect in mind, I would call your 4d Example 1 an SG2 on Deeply Blued Paper. I have seen more deeply blued examples, but I think that the clear and uniform appearance of the blueing qualifies yours as an SG2. I suppose there might be others who would see it as only Slightly Blued Paper and call it an SG4, but I would go with SG2.
( Beryllium Guy) - Chris, first- your comments about what to look for to determine true blued stamps, specifically the 1855-58 "white paper" stamps that are misdescribed, is a master class on the topic. Hopefully, I will not exhibit that same wishful thinking with my examples, but we shall see. For what it is worth, I thought Example one was most likely a SG 2 deep blue/deeply blued paper/ Scott 2a deep blue/deeply blued paper variety. The "eye test" shows a deep uniform blue color on the reverse.
|
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,295
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Mar 29, 2022 16:31:26 GMT
It wouldn’t do any harm to float off these unsightly adhesions on the reverse, jkjblue, There is a hint of the cameo of Hope visible, and the anchor wmk stands out nice and clear.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 29, 2022 16:36:42 GMT
Example Two Well here is ( Beryllium Guy) 's sliding scale problem for blued stamps. Let me tell you what I think (It may be wrong, as I am new at this). I think this would be categorized by a specialist as a SG 4 deep blued/slightly blued stamp (Scott 2). The back has a uniform green-blue color, but not as deep as Example one. I do not think this is a SG6 however, as the green blue color on the back is quite obvious with the eye test, and appears uniform to the edges. My frank opinion is many/most dealers WOULD sell this stamp as a deeply blued specimen. In fact, with my first go-around with the 4d blues stamps, I thought this example might qualify as a deeply blued specimen.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 29, 2022 17:28:23 GMT
Thanks for posting your 4d Example 2, Jim ( jkjblue).... it's another nice stamp! I think your ID is correct. I would also regard this as SG4 on Slightly Blued Paper. Your description of the blueing as blue-green is a good one. I have tended to call it "robin's egg blue", mainly because I want to try to distinguish the color of the blueing from the color of the blue ink, which isn't always easy to do. Anyway, I think you have it right. The fronts of these first two 4d Examples both look similar in color to me, so I would also agree that both can be considered as Deep Blue, although I would add once again that Deep Blue vs. Blue is very subjective. For my own collection, I have used a very simple method. I have gathered up my copies, taken a look at the color spectrum, and then chosen my SG4 and SG4a, and then SG6 and SG6a based on the relative color differences, and that's good enough for me. I don't need a certificate. In any case, definitely SG4 (clearly blued) and not SG6.
|
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 29, 2022 17:58:29 GMT
( hdm1950) - I'm glad you are joining the party. Don't worry about the condition of your stamps and showing them off, I have plenty of examples of "non-pristine" specimens that I will be exhibiting.
|
|
hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,635
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
|
Post by hdm1950 on Mar 29, 2022 18:06:16 GMT
( hdm1950 ) - I'm glad you are joining the party. Don't worry about the condition of your stamps and showing them off, I have plenty of examples of "non-pristine" specimens that I will be exhibiting. You should see the ones I did not share jkjblue . I find it very hard to toss out damaged early classics especially when they have high catalogue value.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 29, 2022 18:07:08 GMT
OK, here are some SG 4 (slightly blued) vs SG 6 (white paper) judgement calls. I have my opinion, but will hold off for ( Beryllium Guy), ( vikingeck) or others to weigh in. Example Three Example Four
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 29, 2022 21:27:36 GMT
While there is so much activity on this thread I decided to lift my few triangles from my album and give them a bath. Sadly my examples are not near as nice as what others have been sharing. The one penny is so heavily obliterated and of course chopped off at the bottom so just a space filler for me. The 2 four pence blues are of different shades and no blueing. I suspect they are the later printings. I can see the anchor watermark on the one on the right but the image does not look right so I wonder if it is a forgery. Like the one penny the one shilling is a space filler but too nice to toss out. These all have been finds from old collections bought and picked so no great investment in them. Hugh, first of all, I want to say thanks for sharing these with us. There is always much to be learned from stamps, irrespective of their condition. But in this case, you should not be too hard on yourself or your collection. You may have done better than you think! Let's start by getting the lesser news out of the way first: the 1-Shilling is in very poor condition, but it is no loss, because it is a forgery. I am guessing that it is a Spiro forgery, but I am not a specialist in forgeries, and I make no claims in that regard. And of course, the 1-Penny is in also in poor condition, since the entire legend CAPE OF GOOD HOPE is missing. It is a little rough to tell exactly, but it looks like it could be an SG5a Rose to my eye. But the 4-Pence blues are nice! They are both full-margin copies, which is an excellent start. The one in the middle of the top row is an SG19, which is the DLR printing, and a pretty nice used example, in my opinion. Many of the later printing used examples are cancelled with the BONC (Barred Oval Numeral Cancel), which can be quite heavy. For a used SG19, I think it is a nice example. Then on the far right of the top row, you have a very nice Perkins Bacon printing, with a face-free cancel, which I consider to be a premium example for a used copy. It is most likely an SG6, on the so-called "white" paper, but I have a slight impression that it could be faintly blued. It is a little hard to tell from the scan. If you say that this has already been soaked and that you are not seeing any of the "robin's egg blue", then it is most likely the SG6, but still a very nice example. Thanks again for sharing, Hugh. Please don't hesitate to post your other holdings, no matter what the condition. Who knows what might be lurking there?
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 29, 2022 21:47:02 GMT
OK, here are some SG 4 (slightly blued) vs SG 6 (white paper) judgement calls. I have my opinion, but will hold off for ( Beryllium Guy ), ( vikingeck ) or others to weigh in. Thanks for another intriguing post, Jim.... you have become the life of the party around here! Another couple of really interesting and challenging examples. I will be interested to see how our opinions will stack up against each other in the end. OK, here goes: Example 3My impression is that this is an SG6 on the so-called white paper. There is evidence of blue color on the back, but it looks more to me like print-through or ink transfer from the printing, rather than the robin's egg color that I associate with blueing. And the paper looks to be cream-colored or even ivory, which means that it is "white" in catalogue parlance! Example 4I think that this is the one more likely to be an SG4 on Slightly Blued Paper. I also note the blue on the back has the color I associate with blueing, and it also extends beyond where the printed image is on the front side. Observation: The ironic thing about this is that, at least to my eye, the examples of Slightly Blued Paper (SG4) actually look to be more "white" in appearance than the more common ones (SG6) on the so-called "white" paper, which is only white in the sense that it is not blued! This is where I originally went wrong on identifying these. I thought that ones that actually looked white must be the ones on white paper, but that is, in fact, not the case at all. How did I manage to screw that up? It's a good thing that someone in the know set me straight.
|
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 0:33:09 GMT
Wow, ( hdm1950 ), can you believe how much information Chris ( Beryllium Guy ) was able to extract from your scans? And congrats on the DLR SG 19 (Scott 13) 4 Pence! I glanced at your "saved from the trash" triangles, and I believe the 4d blue is a forgery, and the 6d is actually another DLR issue! ( I could be wrong, let's see what those with more experience say.)
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 0:45:52 GMT
Example 3
My impression is that this is an SG6 on the so-called white paper. There is evidence of blue color on the back, but it looks more to me like print-through or ink transfer from the printing, rather than the robin's egg color that I associate with blueing. And the paper looks to be cream-colored or even ivory, which means that it is "white" in catalogue parlance!Yes, that is my thought: a SG6 on "non-blued" paper. Since the 4d is blue, some blue may show through the reverse from the print, and not because the paper is "blued". I think this is a common error with "less experienced". And, yes, I was "less experienced" several days ago and entertained the same notion until being educated here. I remember reading a quote from Richard, the expert that you mentioned, that one should look at the outer edges of the reverse, not the more central area were the 4d blue pigment can show through and confuse. Example 4 I think that this is the one more likely to be an SG4 on Slightly Blued Paper. I also note the blue on the back has the color I associate with blueing, and it also extends beyond where the printed image is on the front side.You made my day! I thought it was probably an SG4, but only barely enough evidence to say so.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 1:45:09 GMT
OK, let's look at some possible examples of another "blue paper" major variety. Specifically, I'm looking for examples of the SG 4a blue/paper slightly blue (Scott 2b blue/bluish paper) 4d blue triangle stamp. The first problem is recognizing "blue" compared to a "deep blue" stamp color, which determines different catalog numbers. I believe I have picked out what - to me- are "blue" color stamps compared to the previous "dark blue" stamps. But let me know what you think. Example Five This example is so "blued" in front that it affects the color of "Hope Seated" and the letters. In fact, because of that, the color of the stamp almost seems "milky blue". The back is definitely blued. If one accepts that the color falls under "blue" rather than "dark blue", then this stamp must be SG 4a/Scott 2b. Agree?
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 1:54:00 GMT
Example Six This stamp has a bit different blue tint than Example Five, but I am also calling this "blue". The paper is also quite "white", which paradoxically could make this a possible "blued" stamp. This is a tricky one. Is the blue on the back of the stamp because of blue pigment show through from the front?: then SG 6a (Scott 4). (Scott also has 4e bright blue, but I don't know if this color qualifies.) Or is the blue from the paper?: Then SG 4a/Scott 2b. Frankly, I am leaning towards the latter, but open to opinion. (Further Edit: on review, I don't like the blue less on the edges: SG6a? )
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 30, 2022 7:05:19 GMT
Just for conversation sake here are the other badly damaged triangles I did not have the heart to trash.
Thanks for posting your other triangles, Hugh. I think you may have an interesting surprise or two in there! Starting at the top, Jim ( jkjblue ) has already spotted it: the 4-Pence is another forgery. It isn't a Spiro one, like the 1-Shlling, but it is clearly not genuine like the other two. So, the 6-Pence.... sorry, Jim, but I don't think it is a DLR printing. Based on the color (I hope I am not seeing dirt), it looks to have gray overtones to me, which gives me the impression that it is an SG7c Slate Lilac on Blued Paper (Sc5b Grayish Lilac on Bluish Paper). Hugh, can you see any evidence of blueing on the back? The blueing on these 6-Pence issues is not always particularly pronounced. I am trying to tell from the image, but does it have paper adhesion on its left side and perhaps thinned on the right? If so, that could explain why no blueing can be seen. The 1-Shlling appears either dirty or stained, so I can't be 100% sure, but it looks like it is the SG8b Deep Dark Green (Sc6a Dark Green). I wouldn't suggest soaking it in water to attempt to clean it, as it looks like it would probably fall apart. If you do want to brighten up the front to reveal the color, you could try a little warm water or hydrogen peroxide on a cotton swab (Q-Tip) to see if that will lift any of the dirt and reveal the color, but you will need to be gentle and don't wet the stamp too much, as it looks pretty fragile. Or you could just leave it as it is! So, at least in my opinion, these two genuine triangles are the more interesting color varieties of their respective types. It's a shame about the condition, but I think you have done well to save them, Hugh, as they can be used for color references for future acquisitions.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 30, 2022 11:20:27 GMT
Hugh ( hdm1950), just to continue for a moment with the 6-Pence triangles since you posted yours. Below is my accumulation of 6d examples, which includes not only those from my collection, but some damaged copies that I use for color references. Row 1: COGH, Left: SG7 Pale Rose Lilac on White Paper, Center: SG7 Pale Rose Lilac, Right: SG7b Deep Rose Lilac Row 2: COGH, Two copies of SG7c Slate Lilac on Blued Paper Row 3: COGH, Left: SG7c, Right: Possible SG7d Slate Purple (this one needs more study, as it could be another SG7c) Row 4: COGH, SG20 Bright Mauve with Script Fiscal Cancellation
|
|
hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,635
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
|
Post by hdm1950 on Mar 30, 2022 11:23:47 GMT
Just for conversation sake here are the other badly damaged triangles I did not have the heart to trash.
'Based on the color (I hope I am not seeing dirt), it looks to have gray overtones to me, which gives me the impression that it is an SG7c Slate Lilac on Blued Paper (Sc5b Grayish Lilac on Bluish Paper). Hugh, can you see any evidence of blueing on the back?' The photos were taken in natural light and are very true. For sure the 6 pence is gray with a lilac tone and I had felt is was probably a Sc5b. I just gave it a wash and there was no adhesion and as you have said Chris Beryllium Guy it is hard to detect the bluish colour to the paper. 'The 1-Shlling appears either dirty or stained, so I can't be 100% sure, but it looks like it is the SG8b Deep Dark Green (Sc6a Dark Green).' I too was leaning towards the Sc6a Dark Green over the later Emerald Green.
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 30, 2022 12:15:32 GMT
OK, Jim ( jkjblue ), let's get back to your triangles.... again, some nice ones there, so thanks for posting. It's worth starting out by saying that similar to distinguishing between Deeply and Slightly Blued Paper, doing the same thing for Blue versus Deep or Dark Blue color is also a very subjective business. This is also acknowledged by Cape triangle specialist/expert Richard Debney. As catalogue values are similar between Blue and Deep Blue, I haven't spent a lot of time on this aspect. What I have done is gather all my Perkins Bacon 4d copies, and then lay them out together. After organizing by blueing or lack thereof, I have them as SG2, SG4, and SG6. Then I compare the fronts and call the darkest ones Deep Blue and the rest Blue. That's as much thought as I put into it. I think that the problem with all these shades of blue is simply one of more or less ink applied during the printing process. To my knowledge, it isn't as if during one period they printed blue stamps and then at another point they printed dark blue ones. I think it was just variability in a manual process. 4d Example FiveI agree with your assessment on this one, Jim. SG4a (Sc2b) seems right to me. 4d Example SixWell, Jim, you may have found a real rarity: a 4d Blue on "White" Paper, in which the paper is actually white! But because it has that white look to it, it tends to lead me to think that it must be Slightly Blued Paper. I agree that this is a tricky one, but I am going to say that I think it is an SG4-4a rather than the more common SG6-6a. All of the 4d copies in my collection with the whitest-looking paper are SG4 varieties, and this was taught to me by Mr. Debney, so I think I am going to stick with that. You also raise a good point about the Sc4e Bright Blue, a color variety that is not listed in SG. I don't know if I have ever seen one of those, or if any of mine would qualify. I will do some looking around to see if I can turn up anything on it. It generally doesn't come up because most serious collectors of Cape triangles use the SG numbers and descriptions. Nice stamps, Jim, I congratulate you!
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 13:48:52 GMT
So, the 6-Pence.... sorry, Jim, but I don't think it is a DLR printing. Based on the color (I hope I am not seeing dirt), it looks to have gray overtones to me, which gives me the impression that it is an SG7c Slate Lilac on Blued Paper (Sc5b Grayish Lilac on Bluish Paper). Hugh, can you see any evidence of blueing on the back? The blueing on these 6-Pence issues is not always particularly pronounced.I haven't looked at the 6d color tints yet (still on the 4d blues), so it is a good thing we have ( Beryllium Guy) who has! And I was confused by the "scrubbing" of the surface, which I took for wooliness, a characteristic if DLR printings. I am still on the learning curve.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 14:09:52 GMT
What I have done is gather all my Perkins Bacon 4d copies, and then lay them out together. After organizing by blueing or lack thereof, I have them as SG2, SG4, and SG6. Then I compare the fronts and call the darkest ones Deep Blue and the rest Blue. That's as much thought as I put into it. I think that the problem with all these shades of blue is simply one of more or less ink applied during the printing process. To my knowledge, it isn't as if during one period they printed blue stamps and then at another point they printed dark blue ones. I think it was just variability in a manual process.
Thanks ( Beryllium Guy) for the color explanation. So, the color is due to how much ink was applied? Interesting! I would have thought, considering the 1853-1864 era, that it would have been a less than perfect matching of the "paint" formula, as well as the vagaries of the pigment that would also have an effect? No?
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 14:16:43 GMT
Well, Jim, you may have found a real rarity: a 4d Blue on "White" Paper, in which the paper is actually white! But because it has that white look to it, it tends to lead me to think that it must be Slightly Blued Paper. I agree that this is a tricky one, but I am going to say that I think it is an SG4-4a rather than the more common SG6-6a. All of the 4d copies in my collection with the whitest-looking paper are SG4 varieties, and this was taught to me by Mr. Debney, so I think I am going to stick with that.Chris ( Beryllium Guy) - you dropped another "pearl": for truly "white paper", one should think of SG4 stamps (if there is enough "blue" evidence). Wow, thanks! I totally agree that my Example Six is very tricky indeed. !!
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 30, 2022 14:43:01 GMT
Thanks for your comments, Jim ( jkjblue): This is my understanding/recollection, but it is always possible that I am not remembering correctly. I will go back to the source material later tonight and double check this point. I am pretty sure that my perception is based on something I read in Stevenson's book, so when in doubt, go back to the source material. I will make another post later on.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 16:52:01 GMT
OK, I'm onto the 1855-58 4d blues "white paper" varieties. Actually, as ( Beryllium Guy ) as pointed out, the paper is really "non blued", and in fact often cream, tannish, off-white etc. SG has 6 deep blue/white paper and 6a blue as the catalog numbers, while Scott has (white paper): 4 blue, 4b deep blue, and 4e bright blue. The CV's are the least expensive for all the 4d blue varieties: $85-$90 U.S. One would then expect that many of the 4d blue samples one has would be these SG6/Scott 4 types. And, in fact, I think I have about four SG6 deep blues and nine SG6a blues in my accumulation. How did I determine color? I took the SG 6 type stamps outside in natural overcast light, and "eyed" them. (Thanks Chris for the technique. ) My plan is to present examples of "Deep Blue" colored stamps first. Now I said I thought this bunch of 4d blues are the 1855 "white paper" varieties. But, the next example (Example seven) is already raising questions... Example Seven This "deep blue" stamp has a different "deep blue" tint than the other examples. And it is on quite white paper. Is this a SG6/Scott 4b, or is the blueing? on back a Sg4?
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 17:06:45 GMT
..Continuing with probable 1855 SG 6 deep blue/white paper specimens... Example Eight There is not much doubt in my mind that this is indeed a SG6 deep blue/"non blued" paper variety (Scott 4b). It has a darker blue tint then Example Seven. And, perhaps there is an illustration of Chris's assertion that colors are because of depth of color pigment: Note the lighter blue color around "Hope Seated"? !! Update note: The Stevenson book says the deep blue 4ds are susceptible to oxidation, turning an almost indigo color at times. That could explain the change in blue coloring seen within this stamp.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 17:15:21 GMT
..Continuing with probable 1855 SG 6 deep blue/white paper specimens... Example Nine I had made a note to myself yesterday to NOT show this specimen, because, with the deep blue and lighter blue mixed into the stamp, I was concerned that this was a color changeling (chemical or sunlight change in color). But Chris's comment that the color was because of depth of pigment, perhaps this is an extreme illustration? I would appreciate a comment about this. Update note: The Stevenson book says the deep blue 4ds are susceptible to oxidation, turning an almost indigo color at times. That could explain the change in blue coloring seen within this stamp.
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,628
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Mar 30, 2022 21:42:08 GMT
Your example 7 is a beautiful stamp, but it pains me to see the LR tip folded back. At least that's what it looks like
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,673
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
Member is Online
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 30, 2022 21:49:47 GMT
OK, Jim ( jkjblue ), I have been combing Stevenson for info on the blue color shades, and here is what I found: In re-reading it now, I think it must be the line about "unequal wiping of the plate" that has led me to think of the color differences as being primarily due to variation in inking. What do you think of this interpretation? Does it seem reasonable, or am I missing something in this statement? It is late here, and I have had a long day, so I will come back tomorrow with fresh eyes to look at your latest examples.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 22:10:59 GMT
Your example 7 is a beautiful stamp, but it pains me to see the LR tip folded back. At least that's what it looks like
( JeffS) Yes, I noticed that after I took the scan. You will be happy to know the tip in now unfolded and the whole stamp is inside a protective mount.
|
|
|
Post by jkjblue on Mar 30, 2022 22:23:41 GMT
The darker shades, which are often heavily oxidised, are believed to include the earliest issued 4d. stamps....... Prussian blue shades predominate, sometimes deeply oxidised or verging on indigo. (Extracted from Stevenson)( Beryllium Guy) - I can't tell from the Stevenson writing exactly what he is saying - perhaps you can? It does sound like the "deep blue" stamps might show oxidation, and that would account for a change in color within the stamp?
|
|