Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 1, 2022 11:15:50 GMT
Thanks for your post, Alex ( vikingeck ); this group of 4-pence blues looks quite interesting! I agree that paying an average of £12 per genuine stamp is quite reasonable, and you have some nice copies there with good margins. Well done to you! I think I can see one stamp that certainly looks to be an SG19 (left-most stamp in the 3rd row), but I hope you are planning to post scans of fronts and backs for full identification. I wonder if you have any with blueing on the backs (SG2 or SG4 varieties). Thanks again for your post. I am looking forward to seeing more detail on these.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 1, 2022 12:15:59 GMT
Chris Beryllium Guy , yes that stamp is an SG 19. The previous owner has them marked as SG 6 on the top two rows and SG 19 for the bottom 4 . 11 of them show no bluing , one has slight bluing I believe, especially into the margins at the front. So I am calling that a SG4 , one has an interesting offset / set off at the apex , a clear imprint of the rosette from another sheet . It is not a thin or an adhesion, No enhancement of value but of enough interest as a curio to display the reverse. I need to check more carefully, have a look at watermarks …..any Sideways for example ?. Will post up details later.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 23, 2022 23:03:41 GMT
I recently acquired a group of COGH 1853-1864 Triangles, and would very much appreciate the help of Chris (Beryllium Guy) and others in figuring out some of the more puzzling ones. Example One Update Note: Probable Chemical changelingThis is either a PB 1855-58 1d, or possibly a DLR 1863-64 variety. What throws me off is the darker color.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 24, 2022 7:40:45 GMT
Thanks for your post, Jim ( jkjblue ). Your "Example One" is a nice stamp, and thanks for showing both the front and the back. I can certainly understand why you are questioning the identity based on the color, but to me, it is clearly a shade of Brick Red. The scan seems to show the tell-tale orange-brown tones that characterize the Brick Red and distinguish it from the Rose Red, Deep Carmine, and other shades. Despite its relatively dark color, it is not the Deep/Dark Carmine of a DLR printing like SG18 (Sc12), which is even darker. Below is a composite image that I previously posted in this thread: Top Row: Left: SG1 Pale Brick Red, Middle: SG3 Brick Red, Right: SG18 Deep Carmine Bottom Row: The backs of the stamps. The first two show evidence of blueing, deep and slight, respectively, but the third one appears mainly white (where it isn't thinned). SG distinguishes three shades of this color: Pale Brick Red, Brick Red, and Deep Brick Red So, what does this mean for your stamp? Let's look at what we know: Color: Brick Red or Deep Brick Red Image: Clear, showing good detail Printer: Perkins Bacon, based on the preceding two points Back: Does not appear blued; if it is blued, it is extremely faint Therefore, two possibilities: - If not blued, I think this is an SG5 (Sc3b), 1-Penny Brick Red on Cream Paper
- If slightly blued, then it is an SG3 or 3a (Sc1 of Sc1f), 1-Penny Brick Red or Deep Brick Red on Slightly Blued Paper
Based on how the scans look to me, I think it is most likely an SG5, which is a real find. In terms of CV, it is the most highly valued of its type (used), more than the SG1, SG3, other SG5 shades or SG18. I may have found one, too, but it is hard for me to be sure whether mine is truly an SG5 on Cream Paper or if there is a very faint blueing, making it SG3. My advice would be to look at the back of this stamp next to others both blued and not, and try to determine if you can see any hint of blueing at all. Even the slightest trace will make this an SG3 or SG3a, if there is any evidence of blueing. I will try to follow up later today with a better scan of stamps from my collection. I hope this helps, Jim. Thanks again for your post.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 24, 2022 9:58:47 GMT
Hi Jim , I just don’t see any hint of bluing in the paper so I’d have this as the later PB printing as Chris suggests . It is a strong brick red shade, SG 5 I believe.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 24, 2022 11:49:10 GMT
Thanks so much Chris Beryllium Guy and Alex vikingeck for your careful analysis! I can confirm that Example One has not the slightest blued paper. (I have other examples of blued paper to compare.) Wow! A SG 5 brick red/ cream toned paper variety! (Scott 3b) I always work from the premise that my sample has the least CV until shown otherwise. Well now, I have another one to evaluate. Example Two Update Note: Probable Chemical changeling
This example seems similar to Example One, but a browner shade?
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 24, 2022 12:05:26 GMT
Again I do not see bluing .......... the shade still looks "brick red". It is not "rose" nor does it have the warmer red overtones of DLR prints.
Another SG5 ?
I am puzzled by the pencil "10" on the reverse which does not match any Scott or SG number
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 24, 2022 12:17:29 GMT
Thanks for your response and next image, Jim ( jkjblue ), and for your comments, Alex ( vikingeck ). For COGH Example 2, I agree with Alex. It looks like another SG5 (Sc3b). Here I have been struggling for 2 years to find one of these, and you buy a lot that has 2. That's very cool! Neither SG nor Scott list shades specifically for the Brick Red on Creamed Paper, but as they exist for the ones with Blued Paper (SG1 and SG3), I would probably tend to describe the darker one as Deep Brick Red, but officially, it is still an SG5 (Sc3b). Once again, a very nice stamp.... congratulations, Jim! You have done very well!
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 24, 2022 16:51:09 GMT
Wow, lightning can strike twice. Very much thanks to Chris ( Beryllium Guy) and Alex ( vikingeck) for their considered opinions. I'm glad I didn't just put those SG5's (Scott 3b's) into my "Deep Blue" (Steiner) album merely listed as a generic "shade variant". I have one more "1d unknown" to post, which I will later today. It is the most puzzling to me of them all.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 24, 2022 19:09:35 GMT
Example Three Update Note: probable Chemical changelingThis example has a much brighter brown element. No blued paper. Note the fiscal cancel. My own guess is that the DLR 1863-64 variants are in play here.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 24, 2022 22:35:55 GMT
Thanks again for your three posts, Jim ( jkjblue ).... all are interesting stamps! For your Example 3, due to the somewhat "woolly" quality of the print, I agree with your guess that this is a DLR printing. But I don't think it is a straight SG18 Deep Carmine Red; I think it is more likely an SG18c Brownish Red. It is a nice fiscal cancel, too, and for some reason, I have generally found that fiscal cancels seem more commonly found on DLR than PB printings. All of that said, I am now having second thoughts about Example 2. I looked at the scan on a different device than I originally did, and the brown tone looked more pronounced. This is making me think that it might be an SG18b Deep Brown Red, rather than a darker shade of SG5. It is late here now, so I am headed off to bed after this post. Tomorrow, I will put all of my 1-Penny Reds together and try to come up with a color comparison for the PB shades of Brick Red and the DLR SG18 Deep Carmine Red, SG18b Deep Brown Red, and SG18c Brownish Red. I will then try to compare to yours as best I can.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 25, 2022 3:06:05 GMT
Thanks so much Chris ( Beryllium Guy) for planning to go that extra mile (or is it a marathon? ). !! Frankly, I will be happy with any result. In regards to Example Three, if it is indeed a DLR issue, I was thinking SG18c Brownish Red (Scott 12b) as a likely possibility.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 25, 2022 13:57:53 GMT
I know it is not a hard and fast rule, but the ink manuscript date of. 14 /11/ 64, is a pretty good indicator of DLR printing most of the time
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 25, 2022 15:10:58 GMT
Thanks vikingeck !! Can't see the forest for the trees problem. Until vikingeck pointed out the written date on the stamp, I didn't notice it. Yes, that 1864 date would place the stamp during the period of DLR printings.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 25, 2022 15:52:15 GMT
Yes indeed, Alex ( vikingeck ), an excellent point about the date of the manuscript cancel. Not a hard and fast rule, but a high probability indicator, for sure. I had also failed to pay attention to it, so well spotted on your part! OK, so it seems that we now have several indicators, all in favor of Example 3 being a DLR printing: - Woolly print is a clear indicator
- Red-brown color fits SG18 varieties
- Manuscript date in 1864 clearly in the DLR timeframe
Jim ( jkjblue ), I think we can safely say that Example 3 is an SG18c (Sc12b) Brownish Red, DLR Woolly Print.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 25, 2022 16:18:19 GMT
jim (jkjblue), I think we can safely say that Example 3 is an SG18c (Sc12b) Brownish Red, DLR Woolly Print.Woo-hoo! I will put it in the album with the proper I.D. Also, I am going to upload to the Forum a couple copies of the 1d with bluing on the back - at least I think so.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 25, 2022 16:26:32 GMT
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 25, 2022 22:30:05 GMT
Cape of Good Hope 1-Penny Triangles Perkins Bacon & De La Rue PrintingsJim ( jkjblue), thanks for your patience. It took me some time to pull the stamps from my collection pages and from my color varieties accumulation to assemble and then scan this page for your and everyone else's reference. I have scanned both fronts and backs for completeness. I believe that all of these are correctly identified. The only one which I am not 100% sure on is the one that I think may be an SG5 on Cream Paper, but the more I look at it, the more I think it may be a genuine SG5. Row 1: Two copies of SG1 Pale Brick Red on Deeply Blued Paper (the blueing tints the brick-red color a little, in my opinion) Row 2: Left & Center, SG3 Brick Red on Slightly Blued Paper; Right, SG5 Brick Red on Cream Paper (my ID, back of stamp has 3a written in pencil) Row 3: Two copies of SG18 Deep Carmine Red; the one on the right is a "woolly" print Row 4: Left, SG18b Deep Brown Red (Sc12a Reddish Brown); Right, SG18c Brownish Red (Sc12b) Row 1 Backs: Two copies of SG1 Deeply Blued Paper (it is the blueing on the back that counts for identification, i.e. deep vs. slight Row 2 Backs: Left & Center, SG3 Slightly Blued Paper, which is very slight/faint in the center copy; Right, SG5 Cream-Toned Paper? By comparison, there seems no evidence of blueing. Row 3 Backs: Two copies of SG18 without gum on non-blued paper Row 4 Blacks: Left, SG18b without gum on non-blued paper; Right, SG18c with part original gum (brownish areas) on non-blued paper Jim, my next step will be to take your first two examples and place them digitally next to my copies for color comparison. Opinions and comments welcome!
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Mar 25, 2022 22:36:11 GMT
Chris and I, have had regular discussion on bluing. It seems an artificial and arbitrary decision as to why SG tries to differentiate between bluing and slight bluing.
The SG1 often has intense blue on the back , Stamps with a hint of blue are designated SG3 as someone has pencilled on your example 4
But what about intermediate degrees of blueing .? I feel your number 5 example is more blued than example 4 but not really blue enough to be SG1.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 0:01:37 GMT
The SG1 often has intense blue on the back , Stamps with a hint of blue are designated SG3 as someone has pencilled on your example 4 But what about intermediate degrees of blueing .? I feel your number 5 example is more blued than example 4 but not really blue enough to be SG1.Thanks for the opinion vikingeck. Yes, I have my two blue examples as SG3 (slightly, not intensely blued).
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 26, 2022 1:17:17 GMT
Thanks for posting your additional examples, Jim ( jkjblue). Those are especially helpful for purposes of comparison. I have taken the liberty of putting together a composite image to see how the various examples look next to each other. Row 1: Left, JKJ Example 1; Center, JKJ Example 5; Right, BG Brick Red (possible SG5) Row 2: Left, JKJ Example 2; Center, JKJ Example 4; Right, BG Brownish Red (SG18c) I agree with Alex ( vikingeck) about your Examples 4 & 5. They both look like SG3, Brick Red on Slightly Blued Paper. Unfortunately, the two examples I have included in this image will not do us much good. The colors from my scans are not comparable to yours. My scanner seems to show much more red and yours much more orange. So, I think that the only meaningful comparisons can be from images scanned on the same machine with the same parameters. I say this because in theory, your Examples 4 & 5 and my SG5 Brick Red should be roughly the same color, and they clearly are not. So, where does this leave us? Well, if we compare your Examples 1 & 2 to your Examples 4 & 5, they should all be shades of Brick Red if they are all SG3 and SG5, but it doesn't look like they are, at least to me. It is late here now, but I will re-do the composite image tomorrow, to include your Example 3 as well, so we can see all of the colors side by side.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 2:21:02 GMT
The colors from my scans are not comparable to yours. My scanner seems to show much more red and yours much more orange. So, I think that the only meaningful comparisons can be from images scanned on the same machine with the same parameters.I have to agree Beryllium Guy. Unfortunately, the color tints from different scanners does not make comparisons easy.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 26, 2022 9:21:22 GMT
OK, Jim ( jkjblue), I have put together a new composite image, but this time only using stamps that have been scanned on your machine. Now at least, we can compare with a greater degree of certainty. Unfortunately, color is an important factor in correctly identifying these stamps, and because at least to my eye, I am not really seeing the red in these stamps, we will have to rely on the other factors where possible to point us in the right direction. I will list my opinions on the identification below in order of certainty, starting with the highest degree. Lower Right: JKJ Example 5
Thanks to the Slightly Blued Paper, which is clear and distinctive, we can be confident that this is an SG3 (Sc1) Brick Red. Since this is the one in the group about which we have the highest degree of certainty, we will now use it as our basis for color comparison for the others. Please accept my apologies, as I should have suggested this from the start. Lower Left: JKJ Example 3This one is the next easiest, to my way of thinking. As this has the woolly printing characteristic, and the manuscript cancel date of 1864, thanks again for spotting that, Alex ( vikingeck ), this is most likely a DLR printing, so a variant of SG18. Now we have to try to assess the color. To me, the scan looks mostly orange-brown, which isn't a color listed in a catalogue. You mentioned in your post that the stamp has a "much brighter brown element" compared to the others. Based on that observation, I return to my earlier conclusion that this is most likely an SG18c (Sc12b) Brownish Red (same color description in both SG and Scott). The next two are the more difficult ones based on what we now know. Upper Right: JKJ Example 2This one has a clear, detailed quality to its printing, which is very nice. Unfortunately, that alone doesn't tell us PB or DLR. Although the DLR printings can sometimes be characterized by a certain fuzzy or in extreme cases, woolly quality, there are plenty of very crisp, clear printings of SG18. That said, you mention that this one is a "browner shade" compared to Example 1, and that does seem evident in looking at the scans side by side. So, I am going to stick with my 2nd opinion on this one. I think it is probably an SG18b (Sc12a) Deep Brown Red (Scott: Reddish Brown). To my eye, this image shows the most brown of the five, so I will use that as the basis for saying that I think it is an example of the brownest of the Cape triangles. Upper Left: JKJ Example 1Finally, we return to the image that kicked off this discussion, and I am in a quandary about it now. In theory, it should be roughly the same color as your Example 5, which is Brick Red, and it could be, I suppose. It is a bit duller than either the SG18c or SG3, and not as much brown as either the SG18b or 18c. It could still be an SG5 (Sc3b) Brick Red on Cream-Toned Paper, as I originally thought, but it could also be an SG18 variety, depending on if it is really Brick Red or not.
I am sorry to have waffled around on these. The overriding brown-orange colors in the scans, at least to my eye, are making it hard for me to feel confident about the colors. It may not be much consolation in terms of having a solid answer now, but I suspect that once I return to the U.S. West Coast later this year, you and I will be able to find an excuse to meet up, so that we can compare our stamps in person. I think that will tell the real story. Thanks for posting these, Jim. I have had good fun going through this identification process. Did you say that you also have some questions about some 4-Pence blues? Looking forward to that!
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 15:27:04 GMT
Chris ( Beryllium Guy) - thanks very much for your clear analysis. I am in general agreement with everything you say. I think I will hold off on calling my Example One a SG5 (Brick red/creamed toned paper) for now. Yes, I am onto the 4d blues, and will post some in the next days. You also requested a digital pic of four of my 1d stamps. (iphone 13, natural light) Here they are. Not the most clear and focused pic, but the colors should be evident. All the best! Jim Jackson bigblue1840-1940.blogspot.com
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 26, 2022 16:07:18 GMT
Many thanks for posting that digital photo, Jim ( jkjblue). I have now compared the composite scans side by side with the digital photo. The photo shows up more of the red, which tones down the brown a bit. The colors look more like what I would have expected. This takes me back to thinking that Example 1 looks like it really could be an SG5. The photo makes it look closer in color to the Brick Red in your SG3, which is exactly what you would want to see for a positive ID of SG5. As the SG5 is pretty uncommon, I am not a 100% about it, but I am cautiously optimistic! All of this has prompted me to take a closer look at my own scans, I would now say that I think they may be showing a bit too much red and not enough brown, so that's why the images from our two machines look so different colorwise. You mentioned that yours is an Epson Perfection V600. As it happens, mine is an Epson Perfection V19, so same maker but different model. Anyway, thanks for your patience with this process. I have enjoyed the challenge of the correct ID for these 1-Penny issues. I should also add that seeing the photo of your SG18c woolly print, it is a very bright and unusual shade. It is quite a nice stamp.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 16:27:48 GMT
I have now compared the composite scans side by side with the digital photo. The photo shows up more of the red, which tones down the brown a bit. The colors look more like what I would have expected. This takes me back to thinking that Example 1 looks like it really could be an SG5. The photo makes it look closer in color to the Brick Red in your SG3, which is exactly what you would want to see for a positive ID of SG5.Chris ( Beryllium Guy) - I agree that the digital pic shows a bit more red, a little less brown, and hence my Example one might sneak in as an SG5. Anyway, I will label it as such with a question mark. Great fun with this Chris! Thanks! Jim
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Mar 26, 2022 17:15:38 GMT
Be aware that all cellphones are set to AW = auto white balance! ( it can be sett manualy, but then you need to know the kelvin of the light you work in) This mean that the cellphone produce a image that it think is neutral! So to use a cellphone to decide the color is rubi..... not so god
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 26, 2022 18:12:13 GMT
Be aware that all cellphones are set to AW = auto white balance! ( it can be sett manualy, but then you need to know the kelvin of the light you work in) This mean that the cellphone produce a image that it think is neutral! So to use a cellphone to decide the color is rubi..... not so god ( tobben63 ) - No doubt you have a point. But I added something: - the "eye test" Under natural light my examples are also more red.
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Post by jkjblue on Mar 29, 2022 3:18:23 GMT
As I mentioned earlier, I acquired a collection (accumulation) of Cape Triangles, and I have been attempting to identify them by Scott/SG number/ varieties. The Stamp Forum has been most helpful with the 1d reds. Now it is time to put the 4d blues through an evaluation. Example One Although I have an opinion, I would appreciate the help of others, especially ( Beryllium Guy) and ( vikingeck).
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 29, 2022 7:38:36 GMT
banknoteguy : Thanks for your nice post. I am glad that you are enjoying the thread, and I hope that perhaps it will give you the courage to take the plunge and acquire a few more Cape triangles for your collection! My compliments on your image of the Anchor Watermark done wet. That is very well done. I haven't tried to do one yet, but when I do, I hope mine will turn out as well as yours has. Jim ( jkjblue ): Thanks for your latest post with the 4-Pence Blue Example 1. That's a very nice stamp. It shows beautiful detail in the printed image, and the bluing on the back is about as uniform as I have seen. Very nice, indeed! A couple of points about bluing: - According to Stevenson, the only bluing that counts toward ID is what you can see on the back of the stamp. Whatever appears on the front doesn't matter in terms of ID.
- There is a full spectrum of degrees of bluing from the slightest tinting of the paper to very deeply blued. Figuring out where to draw the line between SG1-SG2 (Deeply Blued Paper) and SG3-SG4 (Slightly Blued Paper) is highly subjective. Even established experts like Richard Debney agree that this is so. If you are determined for an absolute ID, the only way really to claim it would be by getting an expertizing certificate, preferably from BPA Expertising in the UK.
- As you might expect, distinguishing the bluing from the printing is trickier on the 4-Pence stamps than the 1-Penny stamps, for the obvious reason that the former are also printed in blue. And this is where the problem comes in on ID. The so-called "White Paper" of the SG6 (Sc4) examples is only white in that it is not blued! This means that paper appearing cream-toned or brownish or with blue-ink transfers on it is considered as white in this instance. There are a lot of wishful IDs of 4-Pence on Slightly Blued Paper (SG4) that are really the much more common SG6, but a seller or collector sees a bit of blue-ink transfer on the margins on the front or on the back, and thinks that it is bluing, which it isn't.
OK, so all of that said, and bearing the subjectivity aspect in mind, I would call your 4d Example 1 an SG2 on Deeply Blued Paper. I have seen more deeply blued examples, but I think that the clear and uniform appearance of the bluing qualifies yours as an SG2. I suppose there might be others who would see it as only Slightly Blued Paper and call it an SG4, but I would go with SG2. Thanks, Jim, that was fun!
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