REL1948
Member
Posts: 584
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
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Post by REL1948 on Nov 20, 2021 18:01:06 GMT
You are there, Chris Beryllium Guy !! Do not underestimate yourself and btw I love to read your travels and do hope you will keep it up !! René I'll second that René!
Chris's writing skill and broad knowledge are a TSF treasure. We are lucky to have him in all his capacities.
Rob
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 5,639
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Post by salentin on Nov 21, 2021 18:00:07 GMT
As Werner ( salentin ) pointed out, the Michel Catalogue apparently doesn't even distinguish between PB and DLR printings, since all the stamps were made from the same engraved plates. That´s a misunderstanding:Michel does very well distinguish the printings. But they do assign them different "main"-numbers,but subnumbers only. The BP prints are Michel nos.1 I - 4 I,while the DLR ones are 1 II - 4 II. Likewise the different papers just get "sub-sub"-numbers:1 I W is 1 P.on deeply blued paper,1 I X slightly blued and 1 I Y white paper.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 21, 2021 21:46:31 GMT
Thank you for clarifying, Werner ( salentin). Yes, I misunderstood your previous post. I now understand that Michel identifies the difference in the printings by using minor numbers rather than major ones, which is a different approach than either Gibbons or Scott. It reminds me that I want to create a table showing how all of the major catalogue makers identify the various varieties of Cape triangles, so I will keep this in mind for Michel. I will amend my earlier post to reflect the correct information.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Nov 30, 2021 12:19:55 GMT
Decided it was time I started preparing proper pages for my Triangles. Working on my One penny values ( of which I have 8 including two forgeries) I start my second page , the PB printing on white non blued paper . I have what I think are three shades but all in the Pale rose to Rose range . SG 5a / 5b Acquired for £15 yesterday from a club circulation packet . Pale Rose Rose ? Deep Rose red ? SG 5 b
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 13, 2022 15:34:39 GMT
This example of SG (3) with paper more or less blued, came in the mail today . It has fine margins but there is a small crease lower right . . I actually bought it for the reverse view which I think is amusing
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 13, 2022 16:58:36 GMT
Thanks for posting, Alex ( vikingeck). That SG3 is a very nice stamp, and I do really like the margins on it. You already know that I am a "margin guy" when it comes to these stamps! I think that the back of the stamp looks interesting, but I am a little unclear on why it is amusing. What am I missing?
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 13, 2022 17:53:12 GMT
Well the blueing is on the whiter bits of stamp rather than generally on the more normal inked areas giving a nice blue Frame all round and partially outlining Hope’s knee and foot
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 13, 2022 18:06:34 GMT
OK, very good, Alex ( vikingeck). I really like the look of your stamp, and I don’t think that I have anything comparable in my collection. It is a very nice stamp, and if my recollection is correct, your example matches one of the blueing variety descriptions in Stevenson.
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Post by clivel on Jan 13, 2022 18:41:08 GMT
While paging through some back issues of "Forerunners", the Journal of The Philatelic Society for Greater Southern Africa, I came across an interesting article on the Woodblock Triangles in issue #84.
Clive
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 13, 2022 21:02:02 GMT
OK, very good, Alex ( vikingeck ). I really like the look of your stamp, and I don’t think that I have anything comparable in my collection. It is a very nice stamp, and if my recollection is correct, your example matches one of the blueing variety descriptions in Stevenson. Stevenson page 86 and plate 14 The Frame variety he describes as " the Most interesting and rarest variety of this stamp. The paper is uniformly blued or, rarely,white "
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 13, 2022 21:16:15 GMT
Thanks for your follow-up post, Alex ( vikingeck ). I would say then that you have "nailed" this one: it certainly looks like the blueing "framed" variety, which is also largely white rather than uniformly blued, making it the rarest one according to Mr. Stevenson. So not only amusing, but also a real find. Well done, my friend!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 15, 2022 20:17:27 GMT
Decided it was time I started preparing proper pages for my Triangles. Working on my One penny values ( of which I have 8 including two forgeries) I start my second page , the PB printing on white non blued paper. I have what I think are three shades but all in the Pale rose to Rose range. SG 5a / 5b Acquired for £15 yesterday from a club circulation packet. Pale Rose SG5a Rose? Deep Rose Red? SG 5b?Hi, Alex! Thanks for your excellent post, and sorry for my extraordinarily slow response. First of all, if you got a sound copy of a full-margin COGH SG5a for £15, well, then you deserve to be congratulated. That's a great deal! I note from the SG Catalogue that there are only officially considered to be two shades for these rose-coloured 1-penny stamps, which are SG5a Rose and SG5b Deep Rose (no Pale Rose, although I agree that there are most certainly Pale Rose stamps out there). With that constraint in mind, I would offer the opinion that I think that your first two examples would most likely be SG5a, while I do think that the third one is a legitimate SG5b. In my experience in perusing the auction sites for Cape triangles, I think that an SG5b in sound condition is not that easy to find. I would agree that there is a certain amount of subjectivity in making these colour-variety assessments with these stamps, as there are seemingly so many shades of all of them, but I do think that you do have a nice SG5b Deep Rose there. I have several rose-coloured varieties in my accumulation, and I will try to do a proper scan of them all tomorrow to show what colour shades I can, if it helps. More opinions are welcome, of course!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 16, 2022 11:12:09 GMT
Cape of Good Hope 1-Penny Rose Red Triangle VarietiesOK, Alex ( vikingeck ), I have now assembled this rather motley crew of examples from my collection and my reference accumulation, this latter term being a euphemism for generally poor condition or damaged material that I use for comparison purposes when doing identification, but which isn't really nice enough to put in my collection. In this case, the first stamp in the upper left corner of this layout, is an unused example of SG5a from my collection, and all the rest are just reference copies. Row 1: Three examples of COGH SG5a Rose, with the first one being the palest shade, at least to my eye Row 2: Two more examples, to my eye, the one on the left is a slightly deeper shade SG5a, but I think that the one on the right may be an SG5b Deep Rose Red. It is certainly a deeper shade of rose than the other 4 examples, but I am not altogether sure that it is deep enough to qualify as a proper SG5b. I know that trying to make meaningful colour comparisons between scans done on two different machines is generally impossible, but looking at the progression of shades in these 5 examples, I would say that there is a reasonable chance that your third stamp and my fifth one both are candidates for being considered as SG5b. I am still on the lookout for a nice, sound, full-margin SG5b, and if I ever acquire one, I will post it here.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 16, 2022 12:00:22 GMT
I am inclined to promote #3 and #4 to deep rose red also . For once Maxwell Joseph catalogue is not much help . These are all listed as 5b ! which I find peculiar as some are decidedly pale ! It may be the fault of the Photo reproduction but the Stevenson plate 15 is quite different and he says in the text that the carmine is frequently oxidised, whatever the effect of that may be ...lighten or darken ?
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 16, 2022 12:17:28 GMT
Thanks for your reply, Alex ( vikingeck). Yes, of course, I should have thought about consulting the Maxwell Joseph reference.... good shout, there! I agree that it seems strange that it doesn't offer much on these rose-colour shade varieties, as it is virtually indispensible for the 4-Pence blues. Well, I like your thinking about promoting a couple of my other examples to SG5b. I will keep those in mind for reference as I continue to search for a really nice copy of the SG5b for my collection. Luckily for me, the SG5a in my collection is quite a pale rose shade, so perhaps I have been trying too hard to find one that would actually be deeper rose red than it needs to be to qualify as SG5b. Anyway, many thanks for your comments and for reminding me about the Maxwell Joseph reference.
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pattib
Member
Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
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Post by pattib on Jan 19, 2022 14:03:09 GMT
All of these posts on Cape triangles have inspired me to add some to my collection. I don't know much of anything about these stamps except that they are beautiful, and they are commonly found as forgeries. While searching through various online offerings I found a triangle stamp that had an APS and RPS certificate that indicated it had been cleaned of its cancel. I am wondering how you can tell if a triangle stamp has been cleaned and how that changes the value? I appreciate any insights that you can provide.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 19, 2022 14:37:48 GMT
Mint or unused may have a higher value than used, which encouraged some fraudster to try cleaning off the cancel with some chemical or other.
Often this leaves the stamp looking less fresh and may actually damage or stain the surface. Such attempts are usually obvious, and there may still be a faint trace of the cancel when seen in good daylight
However sometimes the cleaning is very skilful and requires close examination , perhaps with UV light ... these are dangerous!
The value is much lower once cleaning has been identified > Serious collectors will not pay good money for what has been faked and effectively damaged . The stamp has lost a lot of its value it is neither "cancelled used" nor "unused".....
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 19, 2022 15:51:49 GMT
All of these posts on Cape triangles have inspired me to add some to my collection. I don't know much of anything about these stamps except that they are beautiful, and they are commonly found as forgeries. While searching through various online offerings I found a triangle stamp that had an APS and RPS certificate that indicated it had been cleaned of its cancel. I am wondering how you can tell if a triangle stamp has been cleaned and how that changes the value? I appreciate any insights that you can provide. Yes there are forgeries but there are far more genuine stamps out there. The blue 4pence is really quite common , it can be expensive if it has 3 nice wide margins, but if you are prepared to compromise with close margins, 10 to 20 Euro is possible for a nice example . the penny can be a bit more expensive . The SIXPENCE is the hardest to get in good fresh condition .
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 19, 2022 22:49:05 GMT
While searching through various online offerings I found a triangle stamp that had an APS and RPS certificate that indicated it had been cleaned of its cancel. I am wondering how you can tell if a triangle stamp has been cleaned and how that changes the value? I appreciate any insights that you can provide. Many thanks for your post, Patti, and thanks to Alex ( vikingeck) for your responses. I would add a couple more comments to what Alex has already said, and I will try to include some images to help you know what to look for. I agree with Alex's point that cancels have certainly been cleaned from Cape triangles to increase their value to collectors and hoodwink them into thinking that a used stamp is a mint one. I would add that originally, the point of removing a cancel was probably to enable the fraudulent postal re-use of a stamp, which was a major concern of the British Government back in the 1850s. In his book, Stevenson wrote: In this case, he was referring to the use of potassium cyanide in the printing process, which led to the "blueing" shown in the early Cape triangles (primarily Sc1-2 varieties and SG1-SG4 varieties). Based on Stevenson's comment, I believe that I found a pair of Sc1 (SG3) stamps showing what happened when someone tried to chemically remove the cancel: COGH, SG3 Pair with blotchy surface appearance, potentially due to an attempt at one time to chemically remove the cancellation I should also mention that when old cancels, whether from pen or obliterator are removed, they can sometimes leave a brownish stain or marr the design of the stamp in the removal process. Here are some examples of both of those instances: COGH, SG7c, 6-Pence Slate Lilac on Blued Paper. showing evidence of washed or cleaned cancel, which is the brownish stain on both front and back. For this stamp, the seller at least admitted in the listing that he suspected that it had had a cancel removed. COGH, SG8b, 1-Shilling Dark Green. showing evidence of washed or cleaned cancel, which are the gray tones seen in the lettering at the bottom. In addition, the top portion also has gray tones, and the stamp almost looks abraded where the cancel has been removed. In this case, the seller made no note of any of these points in the listing. Patti, I hope this may help a little to show what things to look for in Cape triangles that have had cancellations removed.
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pattib
Member
Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
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Post by pattib on Jan 20, 2022 11:22:20 GMT
Beryllium Guy and vikingeck these posts have been extremely helpful. They are a great resource for someone with little knowledge looking to add some Cape triangles to their collection. I look forward to showing mine off as soon as I receive them. Thank you so very much for sharing your knowledge with me and this forum.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 21, 2022 11:38:58 GMT
Patti ( pattib), I am glad that you have found the responses helpful. That's exactly how it's supposed to work when you ask for advice! I should also state that in general, you should look very carefully at any Cape triangle that is described as Mint No Gum (MNG) (or unused no gum). In my experience in trawling through the auction and sale listings, I would estimate that anywhere from a third to half of stamps listed as MNG are actually used with faded, light, or removed cancels. As michael pointed out in an earlier post, there is a big difference in CV between mint and used for the Perkins Bacon issues, so sellers are often going to have a tendency to claim that their stamp is MNG if the cancel is not obvious at first glance. Don't be afraid to download the scan and study it at magnification. Or if a scan doesn't provide sufficient resolution to determine if there is a removed cancel or other alteration, then ask the seller to provide a better one. I never cease to be amazed at how many regular sellers of stamps online, especially eBay, do a very poor job of scanning and describing their stamps. Along those lines, it is also advisable to check the return policy when purchasing. Most of the time, I look for sellers who will accept returns if I am the least bit concerned about the condition of an item. So far, I have had good luck with that. When I have purchased a stamp listed as "fine used" or "sound condition" and it isn't, I have been able to return it for a full refund.
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pattib
Member
Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
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Post by pattib on Jan 26, 2022 23:16:03 GMT
First of all, I owe a huge thank you to Beryllium Guy who took the time out of his day to respond to messages from a complete stranger and provide free advice about Cape triangles. I know next to nothing about these stamps but after looking at all of the great posts here I decided I needed some. I also took some advice from the very first post on this thread by comingfrom I was surprised to discover that this budgetary strategy still works almost 10 years later (I can't speak for the woodblocks though). I stuck with the budget for the one penny ($30) and four pence triangles ($20) but would have needed to make more sacrifices than I was willing to on the front of the stamps for the six pence and one shilling. However, I do believe if one had more patience than myself that excellent examples of these two stamps can also be obtained using the above budget by checking the listings every so often. Then I sent pictures of the four pence and the one shilling triangles to my new friend Beryllium Guy about the four pence and one shilling triangle to see if I was on the right track. Row 1: Left: Sold as an SC12 (unconfirmed); Right: Sold as an SC4 and confirmed genuine by @berilliumguy who advised the cancel was a bit smudgy but overall, the stamp was hard to pass up at $20. Row 2: Left: Sold as an SC5 (unconfirmed) and after looking at these, I realized what @vickingeck meant by These are difficult to come by without fading. I am not sure how I did on this one for the price. Right: Sold as an SC6a and confirmed genuine by @berillium guy who advised the stamp is likely MNG instead of used with a light cancel as the listing had indicated.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 27, 2022 0:21:32 GMT
Thanks for your great post, Patti ( pattib). It looks to me that you have done quite well for yourself. All of the stamps are clearly genuine, and you have managed to find not only copies with full margins, but also face-free cancels, which is something I always look for in Cape triangles. It is not that easy to find less-obtrusive cancels on these stamps, as those Cape "obliterators" administered plenty of heavy cancellations. I can confirm that your 1-Penny looks like an SG18 (Sc12), and the 6-Pence looks like an SG7 (Sc5). So, you got one De La Rue printing (the Sc12), and all the others are the Perkins Bacon printings. Yes indeed, Alex ( vikingeck) was quite right in his comment about the color of the 6-Pence issues. These are absolutely the most difficult to find with good color, as the lilac shades are most prone to fading. In your example, the color actually looks quite good, so combined with the face-free cancel, I think it would have been worth a higher percentage of CV. I did say that the 1-shilling looked like MNG to me, but now that you have it, can you see any traces of a cancellation as the seller indicated? This is another example of a stamp that has a higher CV used than unused, so it may be that the seller decided to list it as lightly used to enhance its CV (and price). Overall, Patti, I think you should be very pleased with your acquisitions. You did much better than I did when I made my first Cape triangle purchase!
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pattib
Member
Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
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Post by pattib on Jan 27, 2022 0:40:38 GMT
Thanks again for your help, Chris Beryllium Guy . For the one shilling, all that I see is that black smudge underneath the "A" in postage. I don't have any high-power magnification and do have really bad eyes . I am very pleased to have a complete set of the Cape triangles by denomination, and hope that I can resist the temptation to expand the collection.
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,615
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Jan 27, 2022 1:39:36 GMT
Thanks again for your help, Chris Beryllium Guy . For the one shilling, all that I see is that black smudge underneath the "A" in postage. I don't have any high-power magnification and do have really bad eyes . I am very pleased to have a complete set of the Cape triangles by denomination, and hope that I can resist the temptation to expand the collection. If you have a smart phone you may have all the magnifying you need with the camera by expanding the image. The triangles look great.
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,610
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jan 27, 2022 4:46:32 GMT
pattib Congratulations on having a fine eye for quality and patience to search
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 27, 2022 8:38:28 GMT
Those are nice pattib, I wish I could find such quality at those prices , here in UK I have to pay double those prices for similar quality….and more ! I just did so at York last weekend .
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pattib
Member
Posts: 80
What I collect: Anything France but especially semi-postal. Worldwide to 1920.
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Post by pattib on Jan 27, 2022 14:59:48 GMT
Thank you vikingeck JeffS and hdm1950 for the very kind comments. For the six pence and the one shilling, I did need to increase the budget to about what you stated @vickingeck to get margins and cancellations I could live with. In my searches though, I did see if you were willing to make more sacrifices in at least one of those areas you can find Cape triangles using the budget set by comingfrom. hdm1950 great idea, I used my phone to magnify the areas that look like they could possibly be light cancels on the one shilling. I just don't know enough to be sure either way.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 27, 2022 16:46:02 GMT
Excellent advice from Hugh ( hdm1950 ) about using the camera on the phone to magnify images. Mike ( mikeclevenger ) was the first member that I can recall mentioning that a while back, and I was ashamed that I hadn't thought of it myself! It's definitely a very practical solution to the problem, that's for sure. OK, Patti ( pattib ), looking at those magnified images of your 1-Shilling triangle, I would agree that the gray marks do look like traces of a cancellation. Whether it is just a light or faded cancel versus one that has been intentionally removed, I could not say. So, I would amend my earlier opinion on that stamp from MNG to used with light or trace cancel. Overall, you have four very nice triangles there, and one of each denomination, all with full margins, good color, and face-free cancels.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 28, 2022 17:51:39 GMT
Just home from London 2022 with a few additions at great expense. In the mail (Care of my neighbour) I find I have won an ebay lot of 12 of the 4d + a forgery. For £140, they average out at £12 each . Once I have studied them more closely I expect I will have one or two to put up for sale individually once the better or more interesting are added to the collection.
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