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Post by decentguy on Dec 30, 2022 11:54:41 GMT
Hi All, I hope someone can put me on the right track here ... comparing my 5 favorites stamp realizing shouldn't there be a sixth ?!.... probably a lot easier if I write it all down first and ask my question in the end ... this way everyone can understand my question a lot easier and see the point I am trying to make .... George Washington: <Sc544 (19 x 22.5) mm, perf 11 <Sc545 (19.5-20 x 22) mm, perf 11 Benjamin Franklin: <Sc596 (19.25 x 23) mm, perf 11 <Sc594 (19.75 x 22) mm, perf 11 Harding Memorial Issue: <Sc613 (19.25 x 22.5) mm, perf 11 Now My question, what and where is the Sc Harding Stamp that is equivalent to Sc545 and Sc594 ?? Many Thanks In advance Roni
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,912
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 30, 2022 15:50:45 GMT
US: Harding Memorial Issue, 1923Thanks for your post, Roni ( decentguy). I think that you already have this info, but I will post it anyway, just for completeness here. If you have already found Sc613 in the catalogue, then you are looking at all of the different varieties of the Harding Memorial Issue, Sc610-613. I am not aware of any others, but I have no particular expertise in this area, so if anyone else knows more about this issue, hopefully they will post here. Below is the relevant excerpt from the 2021 Scott Classic Specialized Catalogue, 1840-1940. You should bear in mind that these were special memorial stamps, issued shortly after Harding's death in 1923. Despite the fact that the style is very similar to the other stamps that you are referencing, to my knowledge, they are not considered part of that definitive series. That is perhaps one explanation as to why you will not find the so-called "equivalent" that you are looking for. Again, I have no special expertise in this area, so other comments and opinions are welcome.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Dec 30, 2022 22:05:32 GMT
Now My question, what and where is the Sc Harding Stamp that is equivalent to Sc545 and Sc594 ?? There is no equivalent Harding Memorial stamp to #545 and #594 because no coil sheets were produced for the Harding Memorial stamp, so there is no "coil waste" from which to produce an equivalent stamp/listing.
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Post by decentguy on Dec 31, 2022 7:54:41 GMT
Thanks Chris my bad it how I bloody put it all together I just made it more confusing while I was trying to make it simpler .... appreciate all the help .... Hi Kim, good to hear from ya.. Well using the word equivalent is definitely the wrong choice of word... its not equivalent to anything .... ok let me start again .... for each of George Washington and Benjamin Franklin There are the tall stamp also the wider and shorter stamp ... Can I pls show you the wider stamp for Harding??
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Dec 31, 2022 10:04:42 GMT
There is a "tall" stamp and also a "wider and shorter" stamp for both the Washington and Franklin stamps you mentioned, because both stamps were produced as vertical and also horizontal rotary press coils. These coils were made from separate rotary plates (one rolled end-wise and the other rolled side-wise, so the dominant stretching will be in different directions). Since the Harding Memorial was never produced as a coil, only one direction rotary plate was made (producing a slightly taller stamp) -- that is why I stated there is no 2nd listing to match the rotary sheet/coil waste listings you mentioned in your original post. You can show a "wider" stamp (using direct comparison, please no ruler pictures), but it's just wild guesses as far as what might have caused that anomaly. To distinguish between the 4 major Harding Memorial varieties, the design width is not taken into consideration. There are several factors that must be met (not just height of stamp design). The 4 varieties are distinguished by the cleanness/sharpness of print (flat vs. rotary), the noticeable height difference (flat vs. rotary), and the perforation (perf 11 or perf 10). All three criteria would have to be met, AND be convinced it's not a perf/reperf alteration of #611 or #612 (see the listing snippet that Beryllium Guy provided).
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Post by decentguy on Dec 31, 2022 17:15:57 GMT
Kim pls listens to me mate, due all respect I know you are a man of knowledge and pretty a smart guy and I Appreciate all your help like now and many times in the past ... I know I know we go way back you and I (so to speak) ... Ok would you agree with me if I said that we weren't told about everything the bureau and all associates got up... We are certainly and most definitely weren't told about all the stuff ups they sometimes manage to create .... and if that one day the boss had decided to stay home so he could baby sit his nutter misses ... that's when anything could have happened and swept under the carpet .... Just Joking with you mate! .... but really how do we rule out those things never happened back in the days ?
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Dec 31, 2022 18:41:35 GMT
Not being able to rule out something might have happened, doesn't prove that it did happen. You have to be able to find historical documentation of a different plate/run to prove it happened. You cannot simply say they did something off the books or covered up a mistake. Yes, they do make mistakes, people go back into the records/correspondences, and find out what happened. But you do have to do the legwork.
Production variations occur during the rotary wet printing process of that time. This invariably will create some unintentional production variations. But mostly, just typical variations that are considered normal, but not significant enough to warrant detailed catalog listings.
But if you are suggesting that they might have created a another plate with wider stamps, you have to be able to find documentation supporting that. It is expensive to make a new plate. By the 20th Century, the BEP was giving each one of the plates a new number. These are all well-documented. There are examples of plates produced but never used. There are examples of plates used, but for which stamps printed from that plate/position have not been found. It's unlikely that you have found a plate that was never documented or that nobody in BIA (now USSC) noticed in the records. BEP kept pretty extensive records. The British kept even more meticulous records, recording creation/evaluation/test/start/stop dates for each plate from the Penny Black onwards.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,655
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Dec 31, 2022 19:31:21 GMT
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Dec 31, 2022 20:19:16 GMT
Well we haven’t seen this mystery stamp so far …. So how about showing what the discussion is all about .
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Post by decentguy on Dec 31, 2022 22:24:03 GMT
Not being able to rule out something might have happened, doesn't prove that it did happen. You have to be able to find historical documentation of a different plate/run to prove it happened. You cannot simply say they did something off the books or covered up a mistake. Yes, they do make mistakes, people go back into the records/correspondences, and find out what happened. But you do have to do the legwork. Production variations occur during the rotary wet printing process of that time. This invariably will create some unintentional production variations. But mostly, just typical variations that are considered normal, but not significant enough to warrant detailed catalog listings. But if you are suggesting that they might have created a another plate with wider stamps, you have to be able to find documentation supporting that. It is expensive to make a new plate. By the 20th Century, the BEP was giving each one of the plates a new number. These are all well-documented. There are examples of plates produced but never used. There are examples of plates used, but for which stamps printed from that plate/position have not been found. It's unlikely that you have found a plate that was never documented or that nobody in BIA (now USSC) noticed in the records. BEP kept pretty extensive records. The British kept even more meticulous records, recording creation/evaluation/test/start/stop dates for each plate from the Penny Black onwards. I got the proof in my hands number 1&2 from the right
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Post by decentguy on Dec 31, 2022 22:33:04 GMT
Not being able to rule out something might have happened, doesn't prove that it did happen. You have to be able to find historical documentation of a different plate/run to prove it happened. You cannot simply say they did something off the books or covered up a mistake. Yes, they do make mistakes, people go back into the records/correspondences, and find out what happened. But you do have to do the legwork. Production variations occur during the rotary wet printing process of that time. This invariably will create some unintentional production variations. But mostly, just typical variations that are considered normal, but not significant enough to warrant detailed catalog listings. But if you are suggesting that they might have created a another plate with wider stamps, you have to be able to find documentation supporting that. It is expensive to make a new plate. By the 20th Century, the BEP was giving each one of the plates a new number. These are all well-documented. There are examples of plates produced but never used. There are examples of plates used, but for which stamps printed from that plate/position have not been found. It's unlikely that you have found a plate that was never documented or that nobody in BIA (now USSC) noticed in the records. BEP kept pretty extensive records. The British kept even more meticulous records, recording creation/evaluation/test/start/stop dates for each plate from the Penny Black onwards. I know exacty what you mean and I agree with you .... our New Years Eve was last night and I aint doing no legwork mate, cause my legs areactually killing me right now what a big night we had here ..... HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
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Post by decentguy on Dec 31, 2022 22:46:18 GMT
Thanks heaps Kim, I guess those things arent easy to prove its almost impossible when all events took place in a different Erra .... would it be possible if the plate was faced horizontally on the coil instead of vertical ?
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Dec 31, 2022 22:55:48 GMT
Unlike flat plate press, the rotary press plate must be rolled like a cylinder. To change the direction, for example produce a horizontal coil instead of a vertical coil, you would have to make a new plate and roll it in the perpendicular direction. That's why I said if you have a wider stamp, it can only be a natural production variation or something happened to the stamp after it was sold. Not something intentional. The production of another rotary plate is not trivial.
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Post by decentguy on Jan 1, 2023 0:30:13 GMT
I see what you mean ...I get it ... I know this is a hard one with lots of assumptions, no certainty
cheers buddy . Thank you
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