banknoteguy
Member 
Posts: 284
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Feb 22, 2023 13:22:15 GMT
From another forum I participate in there has been a recent discussion about certified forgeries. I don't see how anybody but the certifying body is making any money on this but it seems like at least one certifying organization is knowingly participating. Caveat emptor.
Below are two examples of certs for the same stamp, one mint and the other used. In each case the first cert was for the stamp when it was mint, example #1 never hinged and example #2 previously hinged. Each of these certs has been removed from the database. The second cert for each example is for the same stamp with a fake cancel and the stamp is certified as genuine used. It is pretty obvious that these are the same stamps. There appear to be many more examples like this.
As I indicated first, I don't see how anyone but the certifying organization makes any money doing this but others have pointed out that the population of high grade used for many stamps is very small compared to high grade mint. It does not really make sense to me looking at Scott values for such stamps but it is hard to argue with what you see below.
I have also included a couple lines from the Scott values by grade for these two stamps.
Example #1:
Example #2:
Scott values for the above stamps by grade:
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,264
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 22, 2023 17:05:44 GMT
I have never trusted PSE since I had a run in with the original guy who runs PSE a number of years ago when he started his grading system. It seems to have gained some cred in USA unfortunately blowing up prices for very ordinary stamps. The suggested price range here illustrated is ridiculous, but there are always some gullible buyers who seem to think the difference between a grade 90 and a 98 is significant enough to pay a huge premium.
That aside the addition of fake cancels is FRAUD .
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Post by smauggie on Feb 22, 2023 23:54:02 GMT
I have never trusted PSE since I had a run in with the original guy who runs PSE a number of years ago when he started his grading system. It seems to have gained some cred in USA unfortunately blowing up prices for very ordinary stamps. The suggested price range here illustrated is ridiculous, but there are always some gullible buyers who seem to think the difference between a grade 90 and a 98 is significant enough to pay a huge premium. That aside the addition of fake cancels is FRAUD . I ran into them myself. I didn't even talk to them. I listened especially to one of them as they talked with a dealer friend of mine. They left me with a strong impression of their personalities. I was not impressed. |
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 543
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Feb 23, 2023 1:49:33 GMT
From another forum I participate in there has been a recent discussion about certified forgeries. I don't see how anybody but the certifying body is making any money on this but it seems like at least one certifying organization is knowingly participating. Caveat emptor.
This is wild. My generous side wants to take the PSE guys seriously. They're extraordinarily knowledgeable. And they're on to something. A lot of collectors--I mean me--love the idea of perfection and will pay absurdly for it, far beyond any hope of eventual compensation.
But PSE's thing with used ordinary stamps... the ridiculousness of supposedly perfect used stuff is a bit rich, the something for nothing Midas touch, right? No surprise; it tempts outright criminality. And you documented it. That's a service to all of us. Worse, you seem ('seem' because I'm stupidly generous toward miscreants) to have caught PSE tidying the crime scene. This is not sustainable; has to be the beginning of the end for PSE. Hurts me a little; I've bitten at their hook a few times. But that's minor. Who could possibly defend it? If only there was a higher authority to smack this down like the hand of Zeus.
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 284
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Feb 23, 2023 3:36:24 GMT
I should be clear -- this discovery was not mine. Someone on the other forum. Also a further update as this is happening in real-time. The cert for the C27 10c Purple airmail has been changed to read:  And the cert for the C17 8c Olive bistre cert #0135368 has been pulled. Not sure if another has been issued. |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 284
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Feb 23, 2023 4:01:45 GMT
An additional point of data is that these types of fakes appear to have been submitted in batches. You can find bunches of similar high grade used stamps with this cancel in the certification database. I pointed out on the other forum that this is a very common cancel to which I got a response of yeah but this cancel has a defect that repeats on each of the examples examined. I have not personally had time to do this kind of analysis myself. So, all I can say is they look suspiciously similar. Below is a group of three that seem to have been submitted in a batch. There are other examples like this but as far as I know, there is no before images of certs before the cancel was applied and the gum soaked off.  |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,459 
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Post by khj on Feb 23, 2023 4:06:10 GMT
It is improper (my opinion) for a paid expertizer to simply go back and change a signed/released certificate. They should be re-issuing a new certificate/number with a new date to reflect their new "opinion", and voiding the original certificate (leave it online, with the a VOID or WITHDRAWN overprinted in red, and a reference to see the new certificate). It's one thing to go back and edit information mistakes in a stamp forum; another thing entirely to go back and change paid certificates to hide a paid expertizing mistake. Secondly, why is it still stated to be "It is genuine unused..."?!? If a cancel has been applied (real or fake), the stamp is no longer genuine unused, even if they point out "no gum". That's like saying "genuine never hinged, no gum". It may have been never hinged, but does it really matter once the gum is gone? Makes more sense to say "genuine stamp, fake cancel". Once the fake cancel is on there, it's no longer unused nor used. The more they try to cover their mistake, the more ridiculous... (just my opinion).  k |
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