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Post by sunshinerai on Apr 11, 2023 17:17:49 GMT
When I first started collecting I was duped by a pair of forgeries from the late 1800s. Nowadays I cannot believe I fell for it as they’re so obvious. However, I still consider them part of history. Have you got any forgeries? If so, I’d love to see them as I think they’re very interesting! These are mine with the forgeries below. The quality is so much worse!  upload a picture |
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rex
Member 
Posts: 1,157 
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Post by rex on Apr 11, 2023 19:06:40 GMT
Fakes have their own market, in some cases they are worth more than the originals if they are antique fakes. They are also part of the private archive of philatelic experts who use them as a comparison. I like them very much and they are philatelic history in their own way.
If they are traveled and on an envelope even more interesting.
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Post by gstamps on Apr 11, 2023 20:27:59 GMT
sunshinerai, Interesting idea to start this discussion. I found many forgeries in the stamps I inherited or in the ones I bought. I always keep them (I only give up when I have several copies) I learned a lot from studying them in front of my eyes - especially when I have the original. Your examples are obvious and I suspect that they are lithographed compared to the originals which are engraved or typographed. I learned to identify forgings by the type of perforation (if I see a French stamp with line perforation , it is necessarily a forge), by the type of printing, by the paper, by the gum, and last but not least, by the drawing. I always save pictures from the net (at an acceptable resolution) with the forgery stamps that I don't have yet. I give an example of a picture with a forged stamp where I have not been able to identify the differences between the drawing and the genuine drawing. (I ignore the fact that it is not perforated) Maybe a collector who has it in his collection can help me. 
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Post by classicalstamps on Apr 11, 2023 21:06:56 GMT
Here's a genuine for comparison:  The forgery you posted lacks a lot of detail found on the genuine. 5 easy genuine characteristics: * The quills of the griffin’s feathers are in the center on the genuine. * Top of "0" in 30 flat on the genuine * Triangle inside "A" in BADEN is small in your forgery * Your forgery's color is too reddish * The cross on top of crown is indistinct in your forgery For further research, consult: * Distinguishing Characteristics of Classic Stamps, Old German States - Hermann Schloss * GPS Forgery Manuals
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Post by gstamps on Apr 11, 2023 22:09:29 GMT
Many thanks classicalstampsMy image is a print-screen saved from the net and I did not expect to see many details. I checked the recognizable features of the forgings such as the number of feathers, the number of vertical lines in the diagonal band of the shield, the regularity of the points in the shield, the position of the crown cross in relation to the letter D, the alignment of the centers of the letters E, R and E and everything was OK. (the number of pearls in the crown was not possible) Even the rib of the feathers doesn't seem off-centered to me. The additional features listed by you are very helpful and obviously noticeable even if the image I posted is of poor quality. Thank you again. George |
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Post by greaden on Apr 12, 2023 0:37:52 GMT
I keep my forgeries, but in my Hall of Shame binder.
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Post by sunshinerai on Apr 12, 2023 6:37:02 GMT
I keep my forgeries, but in my Hall of Shame binder. I’m very interested to know more about the “Hall of Shame” binder! |
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,416
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Apr 12, 2023 15:50:08 GMT
Absolutely- I keep the fakes - CLEARLY LABELED FALSCH - next to genuine if I have them. They make great reference material and add excellent interest.
Many forgeries are quite valuable - fake does not equal worthless, eh?
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bjornbelgium
Member
Stamps are little papers of joy!
Posts: 68
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Post by bjornbelgium on Apr 17, 2023 12:35:14 GMT
I keep them (unless they are very poor quality fakes) for educational purposes... I have an interesting one on letter, that could fool one, but once compared to a real one (which I don't have), stands out as poorly drawn.   |
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Post by classicalstamps on Apr 17, 2023 13:52:55 GMT
For those interested, here's a genuine for comparison: 
Many forgers have taken a shot at the "Sachsendreier" with more than 30 different forgeries out there. |
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Post by paul1 on Apr 17, 2023 15:07:29 GMT
age tones things - particularly paper - and slightly discoloured perfs. and a less than new look overall is to be expected, so perhaps it's easy with hindsight to see the Drei Pfennigs as very likely a modern copy - it looks too good - also adhesive can be a guide to originality, or not. But love the copperplate 'hand' - is that fake too:-):-) . Forgery is a whole universe on its own - some U.K. art forgers works do indeed fetch more than the original, and whilst it pains me to say so, some is of a very high standard. Then again ........... in the attached picture are blocks of Transvaal low values from the 1885 - 1895 period that are so mint as to be unbelievable, and I've always assumed modern copies. But - seems their pristineness is possibly due to the fact that they're early C20 copies, from the original plates, rather than out and out fakes. There are ways to differentiate these from the originals - not sure that I'm clever enough for that. What do folk think? Sorry the picture quality is less than good.  |
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Post by classicalstamps on Apr 17, 2023 19:52:30 GMT
age tones things - particularly paper - and slightly discoloured perfs. and a less than new look overall is to be expected, so perhaps it's easy with hindsight to see the Drei Pfennigs as very likely a modern copy - it looks too good - also adhesive can be a guide to originality, or not. But love the copperplate 'hand' - is that fake too:-):-) It is quite common (and clever!) to enhance original "material" hereby raising/multiplying its value. One of the reasons why experts keep track of covers within their "sphere of interest". Easy to see if things change over time. |
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 287
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Apr 17, 2023 22:20:55 GMT
Forgeries meant to deceive are always worth studying. But another category is of fakes that are more like fantasies. If you know the stamp, you can easily tell. Like this U.S. S.39 (90c Washington) fantasy. I don't have a genuine, yet. So, I use this as a place holder. Should not fool anyone but looks interesting.  |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,661
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 18, 2023 2:07:43 GMT
Thanks for starting this thread, sunshinerai. It's an interesting topic, for sure. Coming back to the original question, yes, I do keep forgeries when I discover them. For my part, however, I normally do not buy them deliberately, like some collectors do. I am usually happy to have reference books and online resources that help me to determine genuine vs. forgery. I have a page in one stock book that is for forgeries as I discover them. Luckily, I don't need a whole binder.... at least, I don't think I do. Maybe the joke's on me!  |
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bjornbelgium
Member
Stamps are little papers of joy!
Posts: 68
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Post by bjornbelgium on Apr 18, 2023 13:06:32 GMT
For those interested, here's a genuine for comparison:
Many forgers have taken a shot at the "Sachsendreier" with more than 30 different forgeries out there. Thx for the real deal image, when looking, you can immediately establish the much better quality of the real stamp! |
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bjornbelgium
Member
Stamps are little papers of joy!
Posts: 68
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Post by bjornbelgium on Apr 18, 2023 13:08:48 GMT
age tones things - particularly paper - and slightly discoloured perfs. and a less than new look overall is to be expected, so perhaps it's easy with hindsight to see the Drei Pfennigs as very likely a modern copy - it looks too good - also adhesive can be a guide to originality, or not. But love the copperplate 'hand' - is that fake too:-):-) . Forgery is a whole universe on its own - some U.K. art forgers works do indeed fetch more than the original, and whilst it pains me to say so, some is of a very high standard. Then again ........... in the attached picture are blocks of Transvaal low values from the 1885 - 1895 period that are so mint as to be unbelievable, and I've always assumed modern copies. But - seems their pristineness is possibly due to the fact that they're early C20 copies, from the original plates, rather than out and out fakes. There are ways to differentiate these from the originals - not sure that I'm clever enough for that. What do folk think? Sorry the picture quality is less than good. I found that the forged stamp on probably real cover, is a repro forgery from 1980... so indeed, paper looks way too fresh! |
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Post by gstamps on Apr 18, 2023 14:09:21 GMT
Hi bjornbelgiumAre you referring to Peter Winter's forgings? |
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Post by classicalstamps on Apr 18, 2023 18:21:25 GMT
Forgeries meant to deceive are always worth studying. But another category is of fakes that are more like fantasies. If you know the stamp, you can easily tell. Like this U.S. S.39 (90c Washington) fantasy. I don't have a genuine, yet. So, I use this as a place holder. Should not fool anyone but looks interesting. Here's the real one:  |
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Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Apr 19, 2023 10:11:24 GMT
Hi sunshinerai
I specialize and collect only 3 countries. Therefore, fakes are part of my collection. Since I use blank quadrille pages, I mount the real stamp and the fake, forgery, on the samr page.
Jerry B
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 287
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Apr 19, 2023 12:10:33 GMT
Collecting some areas/countries pretty much requires you to thoroughly understand the difference between genuine original and everything else. Not everything that is not a genuine original is a counterfeit/forgery but the line can be pretty blurry. For example, I collect Indian Feudatory States (I.F.S). There are 40 different entities (states) that issued stamps used postally from the 1860s till Indian Independence (1948). Some of the states issued very crude products and consequently (I believe), forgeries/counterfeits of various characteristics were quickly produced. Some were done by the states themselves and those are typically called reprints but are not much different from outright forgeries. Some reprints of these states are likely still being produced. For some of the States (Jammu&Kashmir comes to mind) most of what you see offered online is either an outright forgery or some kind of reprint. Maybe as much as 90% of what I see offered for this one state are not genuine originals but in many cases you need to be an expert to decide and in many cases, you must have the stamp(s) in hand to be certain. In order to build a quality collection in this area, a collector will accumulate a lot of fakes/reprints of necessity and the natural course of buying lots/collections. I don’t usually mount fakes in my albums but I do have a stock book with many such items. Mostly for study purposes. I also scan a lot of fakes to be easily compared. But scanning does not really help when the difference between a genuine original and a fake depends on the paper and/or ink type. Below are a couple examples from Jammu & Kashmir (one a forgery, one genuine, both on the correct native laid paper): Forgery  Genuine Original  |
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Post by paul1 on Apr 19, 2023 13:08:20 GMT
thanks for posting banknoteguy - yes, it's easy to understand that stamps of rustic and naive appearance like these I.F.S. are easier to fake than highly detailed examples - U.K. seahorses - for example. Coming back to the 90 cent Washington, I could understand if the forgeries were produced by some photographic process, in which case they would look far more like the original. Presumably they weren't - so does that mean someone actually engraved what we see on the forgeries? Seems a waste of time when the resulting image lacks quality, but the value of these things is usually v. high, even a single sale makes it worth while.
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banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 287
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
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Post by banknoteguy on Apr 19, 2023 13:42:01 GMT
The 90c Washington fantasy is, I believe, a lithograph. Not photographically done. So not engraved but someone had to draw by hand a fairly realistic looking stamp. I think the result has a cartoon like effect. I don't know when it was done but I don't think anytime in the last 50 years, maybe as much as 100 years ago. It may be a Spiro but I am not sure of that. I did not pay a lot for it. If I can find a proof or a sample (left below) at a reasonable price, I will "upgrade!"  |
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bjornbelgium
Member
Stamps are little papers of joy!
Posts: 68
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Post by bjornbelgium on Apr 19, 2023 21:50:04 GMT
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Post by gstamps on Apr 20, 2023 5:46:33 GMT
Thank you bjornbelgiumThe website "stampsx" is an extraordinary resource of information for German stamps. |
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