REL1948
Member 
Posts: 583 
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
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Post by REL1948 on Apr 24, 2023 4:59:26 GMT
The 'Dandy Roll’ and Watermarked Paper Holding a sheet of paper up to the light, sometimes we can see designs, letters or symbols revealed. As most of you already know these images are called watermarks. They can often be found in both hand and machine made paper that’s been crafted using western traditions. One type of watermarking device used in machine made paper manufacturing is the ‘Dandy roll’, a lightweight hollow cylinder with a raised design on its surface. It was invented in 1826 by an English mold maker, John Marshall. Dandy roll diameters are determined by production speed requirements. They typically have diameters ranging from 800 to 2000 mm thus allowing speeds of up to 3600 feet of paper throughput per minute on the high side.
During the paper manufacturing process, after the paper has been formed and laid onto a conveyor belt, it travels under the Dandy roll which lightly presses its’ design into the wet fibers. The roll displaces and thins the paper fibers in the area where the design will appear. Once the paper has dried, the watermark can’t be changed, and remains there permanently. For this reason, watermarks can provide both security and authenticity. It can even possibly be used to help distinguish an original document from a copy.
I stumbled across this photo on Facebook. The repeating crown design on the cylinder immediately caught my attention. I hadn’t seen an actual photo of a watermarking device before and wanted to learn more about it.
This unattributed information was found on Wikipedia and the internet and edited for philatelic consumption. I’m sure there are others here more knowledgeable on this topic that can significantly add to this thread.
Rob
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Post by michael on Apr 24, 2023 7:45:53 GMT
The position of the dandy roller (H) in the Fourdrinier paper making machine as depicted in John Easton's book, "Postage Stamps in the Making".
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,358
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Apr 24, 2023 9:45:43 GMT
It is a nice clear image of the roller.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,415
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Apr 24, 2023 12:28:09 GMT
Oooo! Thanks for sharing this pic, REL1948 . I’ve never seen an actual roller before - very interesting. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 24, 2023 12:51:06 GMT
Hi Rob REL1948 .& michael , That Dandy roll intrigues me. The crown obviously has some GB connection, I thought of the “multiple St Edwards crown” on Queen Elizabeth late Wildings and Castles definitives but that has only a single line outline not double as on the Dandy Roll….. So what stamps actually have that watermark . Not GB ! Was it used in smaller commonwealth countries , eg by Crown Agents ? Any one recognise it ? |
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REL1948
Member
Posts: 583
What I collect: 1840-Pre-Decimal, GB and Colonies, 1840 1 penny reds, Postal Histories
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Post by REL1948 on Apr 24, 2023 14:07:54 GMT
Hi Rob REL1948 .& michael , That Dandy roll intrigues me. The crown obviously has some GB connection, I thought of the “multiple St Edwards crown” on Queen Elizabeth late Wildings and Castles definitives but that has only a single line outline not double as on the Dandy Roll….. So what stamps actually have that watermark . Not GB ! Was it used in smaller commonwealth countries , eg by Crown Agents ? Any one recognise it ?
I asked myself the same question. It's not one of the Crown Agents watermarks. I'd love to find out what its actual application was. There's a chance it's not philatelic but sure looks like it.
Rob  |
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Post by michael on Apr 27, 2023 7:59:18 GMT
A recent purchase of Antigua stamps included the following, a small section of ungummed star watermarked paper as used by Perkins Bacon for many of the Colonial stamps they printed.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,467
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Post by khj on Apr 27, 2023 8:57:41 GMT
That Dandy roll intrigues me. The crown obviously has some GB connection, I thought of the “multiple St Edwards crown” on Queen Elizabeth late Wildings and Castles definitives but that has only a single line outline not double as on the Dandy Roll….. So what stamps actually have that watermark . Not GB ! Was it used in smaller commonwealth countries , eg by Crown Agents ? Any one recognise it ? The multiple crown watermark dandy roll shown is part of the RPSL collection stored at the Spear Museum of Philatelic History. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 27, 2023 10:43:43 GMT
Hi khj , the same dandy roll as the opening post, different angle, but still no clearer if , and for what stamp issue, it was ever used. Still searching and wondering. |
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Apr 27, 2023 12:33:01 GMT
interesting post thanks for that. Not really on topic but does anyone know where to find similar information on Newfoundland and other BNA watermarks on revenues stamps? Van damn catalog only mentions watermarks without pictures of them. I'm kinda hooked on Halifax law library issues among others.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,467
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Post by khj on Apr 27, 2023 17:29:11 GMT
Hi khj , the same dandy roll as the opening post, different angle, but still no clearer if , and for what stamp issue, it was ever used. Still searching and wondering. It's actually the exact same picture, simply rotated. As mentioned, it's pilfered from the Spear Museum / RPSL archives. You can try emailing/contacting them. Somebody there probably knows the specifics. |
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Post by daniel on Nov 26, 2023 17:35:21 GMT
I have the Museum Catalogue from 1965. The Dandy Roll is noted as being "with multiple New South Wales type crown watermark." If that doesn't make sense, don't blame me  Daniel |
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neilmac
Member
Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 152
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 11, 2023 19:15:56 GMT
And this a partial scan of a full sheet of circa 1855 paper used in NZ.  |
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