clivel
Member 
Posts: 387 
What I collect: Basutoland, Bechuanaland, Rhodesias, South Africa, Swaziland, Israel to 1980, Ireland predecimal, Palestine Mandate
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Post by clivel on Apr 25, 2023 16:24:48 GMT
I have been after a copy of the The Triangular Stamps of Cape of Good Hope by Stevenson for a number of years, however, to-date, have had little luck.
As part of my search I set an eBay watch with email alerts enabled. Eventually, this morning, I received an email from eBay that a copy is available at the relatively affordable buy-it-now price of US$54.99. In my haste to buy the book I almost missed that the auction was for a PDF download, not the actual book.
Although my preference when it comes to books is for an actual physical book, I am not completely adverse to buying a PDF as long as the book is out of copyright and reasonably priced, but $54.99 is way beyond the pale.
After the initial scan, the seller has no further costs when it comes to "creating" additional copies.
What do others think would be a reasonable price?
Clive
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Apr 25, 2023 17:32:00 GMT
No idea what is reasonable for a PDF version but I paid £80 plus postage for my 2nd hand copy Just shy of $100 .
But then I still prefer books.
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Apr 25, 2023 18:13:18 GMT
When I REALLY want something, I'll pay the price. In this case, I'd buy it because I'd have fun reading it. I've never wanted to sit and stare at money.
Plus, I could print it and have a hard copy.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator 
Posts: 5,912
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 25, 2023 19:35:47 GMT
Clive ( clivel), please send me a PM before you buy anything. I may be able to help you. |
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Apr 25, 2023 22:56:22 GMT
@beryllium Guy
You are the Saint of TSF, Chris!
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Apr 25, 2023 23:41:29 GMT
@ beryllium Guy
You are the Saint of TSF, Chris! Zip I could reach "heaven" also....but have not found it yet  |
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zipper
Member
Posts: 2,649
What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Apr 26, 2023 0:59:59 GMT
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
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Post by cjd on Apr 26, 2023 1:58:35 GMT
If something is truly out of copyright, it should be findable, or shareable, eventually. (Things that are still in copyright are often available, too, but that's not something for polite company. Or here.)
If I couldn't find something and really wanted it, I'd swallow hard and buy it. $50 would be higher than I've paid, but I've paid $30, if I recall correctly. And $5 or $10 frequently. If it is truly out of copyright, I'll have no hesitation thereafter sharing it person to person. I could post it on my website, but I generally just pass things along one thing at a time.
ETA: Have people searched and found that Triangles truly isn't available?
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,912
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 26, 2023 5:26:05 GMT
Collin ( cjd): to my knowledge, the Stevenson book is not publicly available as a free PDF. It is also my understanding that the copyright still applies until 70 years after the author's death, and since he passed away in 1971, we still have a few years to go before that expires. I am not sure if the eBay offering of $55 for a PDF file is a legal offer or not. When I was doing research for my article on Cape Triangles, I tried to find free access to the text of the book online, but I was unsuccessful and ended up needing to acquire a copy privately. Please feel free to PM me if you want to know more. Zip ( zipper): I appreciate your accolades, as I know that they are sincere, but I am no saint (just ask my family!). I am only trying to help other people when I can. There are plenty of times when I can't, so I try to make the most of the times when it lies within my power. Many others have helped me along the way, so I am trying now to repay their gifts to me by sharing what I can when I can. I figure that the greatest value of knowledge lies in sharing it with others. OK, stepping down from my soapbox now....  |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 26, 2023 6:18:55 GMT
Beryllium Guy, the copyright rules will depend on the country and date in which the copyright was claimed/filed. The law varies from country to country, and some changes in the copyright laws are applied previous copyrights while some changes are not fully/partially backdated. It gets more complicated with every change. From what I've read, the claim is that Stevenson's book is no longer protected under the copyright laws of South Africa, and they explained why. Were the copyright held in the US, it would still be protected. However, I never researched the validity of that claim. I leave that to others who are better versed in the non-US copyright laws.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,912
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 26, 2023 7:08:44 GMT
Thanks for your post, khj. As a matter of curiosity, how does South Africa figure into whether the Stevenson book is still protected by copyright? I understand, of course, that the subject matter has to do with stamps from South Africa, but I don’t really understand why that would matter. The book was published by Harmer, listing offices in New York, London, and Sydney. The book was printed in Edinburgh, Scotland. |
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,700
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Apr 26, 2023 9:20:07 GMT
If country has a different copyright law than another country, I assume you could copy it if you were in the less stringent law country. That is, you cpuld not be taken to court in the more stringent country for what was done in the less stringent country.
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mberry
Member
Posts: 1,178
What I collect: USA, USA Revenues, Beer Related Stamps and Revenues, US State Revenues, Stamp Show Stamps
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Post by mberry on Apr 26, 2023 9:58:56 GMT
This site might be useful when looking for literature. I have found a few items on it. archive.org/about/ |
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FDI
Member
Member of RPSC & BNAPS
Posts: 386
What I collect: Modern Canada (misperf, varieties, tagging errors), Canadian Cinderellas, EXUP & CAPEX & Dead Countries
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Post by FDI on Apr 26, 2023 12:08:52 GMT
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 26, 2023 14:37:24 GMT
As a matter of curiosity, how does South Africa figure into whether the Stevenson book is still protected by copyright? I understand, of course, that the subject matter has to do with stamps from South Africa, but I don’t really understand why that would matter. The book was published by Harmer, listing offices in New York, London, and Sydney. The book was printed in Edinburgh, Scotland. To be honest, I don't remember the details, as I simply skimmed through the paragraph(s). All I remember is the claim that US copyright laws don't apply because the copyright supposedly was with South Africa and they cited RSA copyright law at that time. Wrong or right, never bothered to look into the details. It's possible I misread parts of it, as I was only skimming. If I ever run across it again, I'll post here. Also, I don't think it matters where the book was printed, only where the copyright was filed. Just like patents -- doesn't matter where the item is manufactured, only where the patent is filed. |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,912
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Apr 26, 2023 16:59:28 GMT
Very interesting, khj ! I understand the bit about what matters is where the copyright is filed. That’s clear and makes sense. In the case of the Stevenson book, I find it odd that the country or countries of copyright don’t seem to be noted anywhere in the title page section of the book. When it isn’t explicitly stated in the work itself, how would one be able to find out where in the world a work is copyrighted? Anyway, thanks for raising this point. |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 26, 2023 19:09:56 GMT
I'll see if I can find those paragraphs making that claim. My memory isn't very reliable since last summer (my wife claims the reliability issue goes back much further than that, but I don't remember having significant memory recall problems prior to that  ). |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 26, 2023 20:54:42 GMT
This is the statement in the Wikipedia Commons regarding the copyright on Stevenson's book.
This is not the paragraph I read, which I thought associated the book with a copyright in South Africa. Will quote that if I ever run across it again.
UPDATE: I see that Alamy also makes a similar claim regarding the image of the front cover. Of course, the copyright regarding the cover is based on (the same) as the copyright on the book.
Again, a reminder, I haven't bothered to research the legal basis for their claim. The claim itself may still be erroneous. It wouldn't be the first time.
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Ryan
Moderator
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,749
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Apr 26, 2023 22:51:20 GMT
This is the statement in the Wikipedia Commons regarding the copyright on Stevenson's book. This is not the paragraph I read, which I thought associated the book with a copyright in South Africa. It's common for different countries to have different copyright laws, and one country's laws can not supercede another's. In Canada, up to the recent copyright law changes which were a part of the recent NAFTA renegotiations, our law stated that copyrighted works reverted to the public domain 50 years after the author's death. So, George Orwell, Ernest Hemingway, Ian Fleming, John Steinbeck, Winston S. Churchill, etc etc etc, are all in the public domain here. D. Alan Stevenson's books would also be in the public domain in Canada, as his death was in 1971, just before the cutoff to our new life+70 years copyright laws. But public domain in Canada has nothing to do with US copyright laws, nor does South Africa's copyright laws have any effect on copyright status in the US. I can do whatever I want with a George Orwell book here - I can publish a complete edition of it, I can take out every second word if I want, I can mix up all the sentences if I want, etc. But I can't sell that edition in the US or in any other country that doesn't put Orwell's work into the public domain. It also means that Orwell's books can be downloaded free of charge here. But I can't then e-mail that file to an American, for example. Or I could go to the Canadian Amazon site and download a Kindle version of everything he ever wrote for a dollar and get something that's full of scanning errors or missing pages or who knows what. Like this, with the random italicization of half of a village name and a missing apostrophe in "Commissioner's". Oh well.  Ryan |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 26, 2023 23:01:54 GMT
Agreed, the copyright laws are tricky navigation, and nowadays often-changing.
Bottom line, I support the publishers as much as I can. Without them, a lot of what we enjoy today would not have been available. It is in the interest of philately to honor copyrights where possible. But once a book is out of print and/or rarely available, and the publisher has no intention of reprinting/updating the book... Holding a copyright hostage, unintentional or not, has the unintended consequence of hurting philately.
Too much good information gets lost with each passing year due to ghost copyrights. Not trying to provide justification. Just stating a reality.
I wish the publishers would get together and organize some sort of pathway where you could request permission to copy a out-of-print/unavailable book for personal use (not for sale/distribution), and just send them something like $5 or $10 for each request that is granted.
Wishful thinking...
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 607
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Apr 27, 2023 1:33:43 GMT
clivel , give the rascal credit for a decent quasi-scam; selling a .pdf. New one to me. Sheesh. The price isn't awful, just not nice. You could be heroic; buy it and make it available to everybody.
There is something happening with book .pdf's; fewer and fewer available. It is rare to find a particular book now. Even websites where they were plentiful, no longer. I used to rely on Scribd. That's no longer helpful. I did a web search for this one. Only found the cover on Wikimedia. That's a tease.
Give the problem to a librarian? Sometimes you can get lucky with an Inter-Library Loan search. I checked the WorldCat. Mostly national repository libraries, but several that do ILL. Not shown here, but a few in New Zealand, too.
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clivel
Member
Posts: 387
What I collect: Basutoland, Bechuanaland, Rhodesias, South Africa, Swaziland, Israel to 1980, Ireland predecimal, Palestine Mandate
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Post by clivel on Apr 27, 2023 2:15:08 GMT
In the US someone could possibly legitimately copy a book such as this as "fair use" even though it is still under copyright in the US, as long as copying it meets certain criteria which include being for educational and not commercial use,
and also that copying it will have a negligible financial impact on the copyright holders, which as they have not made any attempt to republish it likely holds true in this case.
It is also more likely to be deemed fair use as it is technical rather than a work of fiction, however, copying the whole work rather than only a part does weaken the fair use case somewhat.
Either way, as Ryan has explained it is still under copyright in the US, so a US based seller cannot legitimately copy and sell it in the US.
That being said, the digital world does blur country borders. For example, could a US based seller legitimately sell a PDF copy to someone residing in country where copyright has expired, and unless the copyright holder decides to exercise their rights I think that many copyright violations are simply ignored.
Clive
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,700
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Apr 27, 2023 10:59:52 GMT
Do you consider this a copyright infringment?
You purchase a book, you scan it, then donate the book back to where you purchased it.
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cjd
Member
Posts: 1,107
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Post by cjd on Apr 27, 2023 14:40:08 GMT
I believe that the technically-correct answer, at least in the U.S., is that you can make a copy of material you own, for your personal use, but if you dispose of the material, you're supposed to dispose of the copy. I used to know people who bought used CDs, copied them, and sold them back to the used CD store. You're not supposed to borrow a book or a recording from a library, copy it, and turn it back in, either.
That said, a library should be able to send you a copy of a journal article or a few pages from a book, as long as it is for your own personal use.
This is what I believe to be true, for the U.S.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 27, 2023 17:38:00 GMT
That is correct as far as I know. In the US, you are allowed to make one archival copy of anything that is still under copyright that you legally own, whether music, software, books... Whether you define the duplicate or the original to be the archival, is up to you. I used to make a copy of my CDs, and run the copy. So my original became my archival. If something happened to that CD (say, it got crunched/scratched), I would make another copy from the original. So all my CDs, records, tapes... were pretty much pristine. But, as cjd noted, if you give away or sell the original, you are obligated to destroy any archival "copies". |
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