Andy Pastuszak
Member 
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591 
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 25, 2023 15:21:37 GMT
I think we all know about the idiotic decision of Amos Media to charge a subscription for their online catalogs that costs the same as their old purchase model, and still not making their catalogs available offline or making any other meaningful changes to the catalog.
This decision just reinforced my decision to use scottcatalogpages.com going forward.
But I still really want a PDF of the Scott Specialized that I can use on my iPad. But that's obviously never going to happen at this point.…
On to the next company: MICHEL
I use MICHEL for my Ukraine collection.
Michel has an online subscription service. I think the subscription service is too expensive for what I need, and I opted to use other sources to find MICHEL numbers for my Ukraine collection. 2 years ago I broke down and bought the 2021/2022 Osteuropa book from eBay and it proved to be VERY handy when dealing with Ukrainian definitives and all their microprint varieties.
I wanted to order the 2022/2023 catalog, but, with shipping, the one volume is going to cost me almost $100.
Now MICHEL has an option to buy catalog volumes. I can buy Osteuropa for €39.99, but I can only view it online, and I only have access to it for 5 years from date of purchase.
With most of the stamp collecting world having access to the Internet, I think it makes sense for publishers to offer online catalogs, and allow people in other countries to use their catalogs without incurring large shipping costs.
But I really don't like how they keep time bombing stuff.
The Scott catalog subscription would make far more sense, if it offered some collecting tools, like allowing me to maintain an inventory of my stamps, print reports out to give to my insurance company, create checklists of wanted items, etc. But it doesn't. It's just a bunch of JPG images with some flip animations.
MICHEL seems more reasonable. I can buy the book and not subscribe. But I don't like that it's oniine only, and I don't like the fact that I only have it for 5 years. But as a €60 costs saving, I think it's worth trying it out once and see how I like it. I'm sure i would buy another copy of the catalog long before the 5 years comes around.
I know Stanley Gibbons had an iPad app and you could buy the catalog through the app. I bought the Ireland catalog that way. But I think their new model involves using a website now.
Does anyone use catalogs besides Scott, Stanley Gibbons or MICHEL? How do they deal with their digital offerings?
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 25, 2023 17:21:37 GMT
Wow, I didn't think it was possible for someone to offer a worse online experience than Amos, but MICHEL pulled it off.
The catalog is, of course, online only. But so many issues.…
1. You can leave notes on anything. At least Amos lets you leave notes. 2. On my laptop, there is no way to just view one page. You have to view pages side by side. 3. Going "full-screen" on the iPad does not go full screen. It shows the page with a border around it and controls. 4. On the iPad, images are fuzzy low-resolution. To get a higher res image, you need to zoom in on the page all the way, and then zoom back out. And you have to do this for EVERY PAGE. 5. Nothing is cached. When I turn a page, I need to wait for the page to download. That takes a few seconds. I don't expect it to cache the whole catalog, but it should cache the next 4-6 pages.
Here are some screen shots from the iPad.
Page when you first go into full screen mode:
Page after you zoom in and zoom back out in full screen mode:
Why is this so hard for catalog makers to get right?
I just want a catalog I view on my iPad and search that's available offline.
Stanley Gibbons give me an app. The app is full-screen. I can annotate on it. The text is crisp and clean hi-res. And it's all offline on my device.
Here is a Stanley Gibbons screenshot:
Stanley Gibbons I will happily buy online. MICHEL and Amos, I'm sticking to the paper catalog.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Jun 25, 2023 19:00:39 GMT
Should have talked to me before buying that Michel e-book.  As much as I like Michel having an online relational database – the one that's too expensive unless you use it a lot – their ebooks leave a lot to be desired. They're just online, page-flip versions of the PDFs. With Michel, if you want to duplicate on your iPad/computer what you would get with a hard-copy catalog, you have two options – buy a hard copy and scan it to PDF, or buy the PDF direct from Michel. Michel's PDFs are available on their website as MeinMICHEL - Ukraine is about €30 for a 128-page PDF. Delivered via a USB stick, which is annoying, but presumably because they embed a custom watermark on each page to ID the source if you should try distributing it. |
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 25, 2023 20:07:47 GMT
Should have talked to me before buying that Michel e-book. As much as I like Michel having an online relational database – the one that's too expensive unless you use it a lot – their ebooks leave a lot to be desired. They're just online, page-flip versions of the PDFs. With Michel, if you want to duplicate on your iPad/computer what you would get with a hard-copy catalog, you have two options – buy a hard copy and scan it to PDF, or buy the PDF direct from Michel. Michel's PDFs are available on their website as MeinMICHEL - Ukraine is about €30 for a 128-page PDF. Delivered via a USB stick, which is annoying, but presumably because they embed a custom watermark on each page to ID the source if you should try distributing it. You're right. I should have talked to you. But I was in "instant gratification" mode.
I wonder how much shipping would be from Germany to the US.
MICHEL could easily watermark the PDF before they provide you a download link. A lot of other websites do that.
I'm screenshotting each page slowly. I'll combine them into a PDF and OCR them. That will get my by.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Jun 25, 2023 20:15:53 GMT
Last on-line SCOTT bought was a 2021 (Specialized....no limit.....I own) and they changed their mind for further issues. I have a 2019 and 2021 bought and accessible all of the time.....I paid once and that is it. I wonder what the future will bring us - these Editors (of catalogs) want our $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !! Since I own it I did share it with 2 stamp friends (up to now) without any difficulty - IPAD  I have to send it to my wife just to see. But you would(need) have to give your credentials to access....freeeeeeeeee !! books.scottonline.com/customer/downloadableproductsLike my late dad said ( in the 1980s)....viva the "paper" - this e-thing is getting ridiculous !! René |
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 25, 2023 21:07:03 GMT
Last on-line SCOTT bought was a 2021 (Specialized....no limit.....I own) and they changed their mind for further issues. I have a 2019 and 2021 bought and accessible all of the time.....I paid once and that is it. I wonder what the future will bring us - these Editors (of catalogs) want our $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !! Since I own it I did share it with 2 stamp friends (up to now) without any difficulty - IPAD I have to send it to my wife just to see. But you would(need) have to give your credentials to access....freeeeeeeeee !! books.scottonline.com/customer/downloadableproductsLike my late dad said ( in the 1980s)....viva the "paper" - this e-thing is getting ridiculous !! René Accessible all the time until Scott/Amos decides to shut down the servers hosting those catalogs. Then you're SOL.
I bought the Scott US Specialized in the original old Amos Media app. That was a wrapper around a PDF, so everything looked nice and crisp and I could zoom in. The entire catalog was local on my iPad. The only real annoyance was that Amos ran ads in the app.
Well, even when they killed that app, because I had it, I was able to download it and restore my purchase. Then one day I updated to a new iPad. I could not install the app any more and I lost my purchased catalog.
Hosting content online costs money. When Amos allows you access to your catalog online, every page you download costs them money. Not a lot, but enough that if you access it often enough, it really takes a chunk out of the profits they made off the sale in the first place. And the longer you use that catalog without buying another one, the more it costs them.
The solution to this is to make an offline catalog. That way people are not going over the Internet to pull down pages every time they view the catalog.
My discussions with Amos shows me they're totally paranoid about piracy of their catalog. I'm sure they LOVE having their catalog behind a login ID and password with no offline access. But that's also costing them money. There is no way they could continue to sell you an online catalog and give you forever access to it. Commercial web hosting companies don't give you unlimited anything. You pay for storage by the byte. You pay for bandwidth also.
This is probably why MICHEL limits you to 5 years on their catalogs.
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tomiseksj
Moderator 
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Jun 25, 2023 21:35:32 GMT
Judging by the plethora of bootleg copies of their 2009 catalog, that paranoia seems reasonable.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Jun 25, 2023 22:28:22 GMT
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 26, 2023 0:35:41 GMT
Judging by the plethora of bootleg copies of their 2009 catalog, that paranoia seems reasonable. The real question that Amos needs to ask itself is: Out of all those bootleg copies of the 2009 PDFs, how many of those people would have bought the real thing if they didn't have access to the PDFs?
I don't know what the catalog on CD-ROM cost back in 2009, but I can't imagine there was any kind of discount over the print books, considering what Amos charges for their current online offerings.
And it's 2023 now. The technology exists to watermark a PDF on the fly when buying and downloading online. Then if you find a copy online, you can easily find out the source.
Stanley Gibbons pulled off an app and a web site. Amos obviously can do it. But online versions of catalogs are still an afterthought to them.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,698
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jun 26, 2023 10:00:38 GMT
I am Amos Media does not want to optimize the online version to prevent two different platforms to maintain.
For many collectors, I doubt they need or want a regular annual update so even a 2009 version will suffice.
A book or even a PDF is an investment - one time purchase and get to own something.
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kgvistamps
Member
Posts: 201
What I collect: British Colonies - King George VI from all countries and King Edward VII & King George V from the West Indies.
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Post by kgvistamps on Jun 26, 2023 13:27:27 GMT
I don't collect newer stamps, and don't have any requirement to stay current with the new issues. So I took a different path. I created my own catalog using Excel that incorporates the listings in the Stanley Gibbons Catalogue with the Scott listings. I created a worksheet for each country and put in the most recent catalog value as well as calculations for what I consider a good buying and a good selling price. Since I sell stamps on-line it is also the base for the price lists I publish. It is easy to add and delete columns as you need them, and can be copied to a tablet for use at shows.
It took some work at first, and if I am interested in updating it, I buy a catalog or borrow one from the library. It has been extremely helpful in buying things on-line as well as keeping my wantlist up to date.
I would recommend this option for anyone who is buying older stamps that are not often updated. Here is a view of my Aitutaki sheet as an example.  |
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jun 26, 2023 13:35:58 GMT
I am Amos Media does not want to optimize the online version to prevent two different platforms to maintain. For many collectors, I doubt they need or want a regular annual update so even a 2009 version will suffice. A book or even a PDF is an investment - one time purchase and get to own something. A PDF has less perceived valued, since its not a giant book full of pages and a cover. The average person would not pay the same price for a PDF that they pay for a book. And in this day and age, where you're not packaging a CD-ROM in a box but instead providing a download, the percieved value is lower.
It also doesn't help that the Amazon Kindle lowered the price of a new book release from $20-$30 to $9.99.
My understanding is that Amos uses Adobe Framemaker to make the catalog. Making a PDF out of that is easy. Then you just need to watermark it.
One of my other hobbies is Role Playing Games. There's a website called DriveThruRPG that sells PDFs of hundreds of role playing games. You buy a game and the website watermarks it on-the-fly and then lets you download it. Their parent company has a site for fiction books and comic books. They could easily set up a market for Amos or any other catalog publisher. That's what they do.
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Post by michael on Jun 26, 2023 13:53:49 GMT
I obtained my 2009 Scott pdf catalogues in 2015, through a popular paid subscription service. Whether in 2015 they had Scott's permission to include the titles is unknown, but they don't include them now!
I wouldn't have bought a new copy as I only need it for the pre 1950 Scott numbers and only occassionally use it.
Watermarking the pdfs can make it more difficult to sell on Ebay etc. but it doesn't stop you copying the pdfs to all your friends.
It is clear that such activity exists so you can understand why the publishers are being careful.
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renden
Member
Posts: 9,162
What I collect: Canada-USA-France-Lithuania-Austria--Germany-Mauritius-French Colonies in Africa
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Post by renden on Jun 26, 2023 13:57:08 GMT
I obtained my 2009 Scott pdf catalogues in 2015, through a popular paid subscription service. Whether in 2015 they had Scott's permission to include the titles is unknown, but they don't include them now! I wouldn't have bought a new copy as I only need it for the pre 1950 Scott numbers and only occassionally use it. Watermarking the pdfs can make it more difficult to sell on Ebay etc. but it doesn't stop you copying the pdfs to all your friends. It is clear that such activity exists so you can understand why the publishers are being careful. Michael, what if "watermarking" ? Thanks ! René |
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,698
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jun 26, 2023 19:09:09 GMT
I agree but you are not just paying for the printing you are paying for the Intellectual Properly. The value is more than the media cost. This is why Scott prices the catalog clioser to printed price. I doubt the printing cost is more than $20 to $25 per book (my guess) The rest is IP and overhead.
A business person looks at it this way...1000 printed copies makes a certain amount of profit.. 1000 online copies needs to make the same profit unless sales increase to maintain profit. The editorial overhead is similar so that is likely a wash. But in Amos's case they did raise price some to account for added value over printing.
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paul1
Member
Posts: 1,207
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Post by paul1 on Jul 8, 2023 15:31:26 GMT
having some knowledge of bookbinding, I sensed disaster looming when I bought SG's 'Commonwealth & British Empire Stamps 1840 - 1970' catalogue, about three years ago. As a single volume catalogue, it's way too heavy for it's method of construction, and true to form it's now deteriorating as can be seen in the attached pix. The rear board has broken from the text block and the front will probably follow suit shortly - the spine is flat and held together with a plastic cement and in terms of binding quality it's a disaster. This isn't a cheapy - it costs the thick end of Sterling £80, but binding lacks quality and has built in obsolescence, and I don't throw the thing around - always try to be careful. I could re-bind into two volumes, but not sure I have the enthusiasm - anyone else here have a similar problem with this catalogue?    |
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anglobob
Member
Posts: 2,602
What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
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Post by anglobob on Jul 8, 2023 16:16:59 GMT
I have the 2018 edition,Commonwealth and Empire Stamps 1840-1970.Retail price was £89.95 but I purchased a dealer friend,s copy back in 2019 for £20.
Unfortunately,it has the same problems as described above.My wife managed to put it back together but I have just noticed it is falling apart again.Probably due to the heat here also.
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jul 8, 2023 16:40:31 GMT
I obtained my 2009 Scott pdf catalogues in 2015, through a popular paid subscription service. Whether in 2015 they had Scott's permission to include the titles is unknown, but they don't include them now! I wouldn't have bought a new copy as I only need it for the pre 1950 Scott numbers and only occassionally use it. Watermarking the pdfs can make it more difficult to sell on Ebay etc. but it doesn't stop you copying the pdfs to all your friends. It is clear that such activity exists so you can understand why the publishers are being careful. Michael, what if "watermarking" ? Thanks ! René Watermarking is the process of adding uniquely identifying information to the PDF, such your name, your order number of other information. Then, if your PDF ends up publicly distributed, the seller can see where it came from.
I am not a fan of watermaking. because it can be a "guilty until proven innocent" situation. If someone gets into your computer and copies your PDF, it may not be you that leaked it, but a malicious third party.
I buy PDFs of role-playing games and the website I buy them from (drivethrurpg.com) watermarks them on the fly by adding my name and order number on the bottom inner corner of every page in a very small outline font.
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Cephus
Member
Posts: 169
What I collect: U.S. 1847-1993, Australia, China, New Zealand
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Post by Cephus on Jul 8, 2023 18:36:21 GMT
The last Scott set of catalogs I bought were in 2017 and since I don't collect newer stamps, I don't see myself ever buying another one. It's not like the values in there were accurate, even when it came out.
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Post by nick2302 on Jul 8, 2023 22:54:25 GMT
I buy just the sections of the catalogs for the countries I want to keep current in. scottcataloguepages.com/ This is a great site and a collector can purchase just the country they want and not buy a $600.00+ set. The price for the full Scott catalog really breaks the bank and is basically the year's budget for buying stamps. I have dealt with this company for several years and never have had an issue. Nick |
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paul1
Member
Posts: 1,207
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Post by paul1 on Jul 9, 2023 7:10:12 GMT
thanks anglobob - re the very poor value-for-money SG catalogue now falling apart. I could spill gallons of ink in explaining what does make a strong binding, but I won't. But in brief - it's all to do with having a rounded spine and making a strong connection between text block and boards. I might try and work up some enthusiasm for converting into two volumes, but not for now:-)
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Post by michael on Jul 9, 2023 7:27:11 GMT
My 2019 Commonwealth catalogue suffered the same fate but I did drop it a few times. I'm taking more care of my 2023 version!
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djcmh
Member
Posts: 794
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by djcmh on Jul 9, 2023 7:42:46 GMT
If Amos would price their ecopy at something reasonable like US$200-250/yr for access to all volumes (incl. US specialized and 1840-1840) I would gladly pay it.
But ~US$700 or so per year is just plain highway robbery, and prices out most collectors completely.
Michel Online is about US$200/yr for access to all the info in their main line of catalogues (all 30 of them) and even better is Yvert online where you get the full range of their worldwide catalogues, plus Timbres de France and French Colonies specialized for about US$150/yr.
And with both Michel and Yvert, as new volumes are updated you get access to the latest volume, as well as new issue updates.
Amos is just way out of line in terms of pricing for its product compared to the comparable products available from its competitors.
As for Gibbons, I would love to have a yearly subscription that gives access to all of their regional catalogues ( not the 6 volume Stamps of the World, that catalogue is, IMHO, too simplified). But given how incompetent SG have proven with anything internet related, doubt that will ever happen.
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Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Jul 9, 2023 10:58:11 GMT
Hi
I purchased special catalogs when visiting relatives in Colombia and Ecuador. These I use for pre 1900 issues. For modern issues, post 1900, I purchase Scott catalog pages for the 3 countries I collect.
I once asked Amos Publishing (Scott) about publishing by geographic area, as other publishers, instead of alphabetically. Their response was that collectors want all countries. Considering the current prices maybe Scott should address the issue once again. However, thanks to one seller, I can get my yearly "catalog" for the three areas I collect,
Jerry B
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Jerry B
Departed
Rest in Peace
Marietta, Georgia USA
Posts: 1,485
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Post by Jerry B on Jul 9, 2023 11:46:05 GMT
Hi
I forgot this tidbit. I Believe it was Michel who advertised that one could create their own catalog by listing the countries they wanted. I listed two of my countries and the price was more than double the whole South America catalog.
Jerry B
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,698
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jul 9, 2023 11:57:54 GMT
I wish they would show us the survey.. Jay, the editor of Scott, stated in an interview that they may consider regionals for the online version. Printed regionals would add editorial workload and dilute the sales of the full sets.. If you collect, Ceylon and Sri Lanka you need volumes 2 and 6.
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jul 9, 2023 14:37:23 GMT
The last Scott set of catalogs I bought were in 2017 and since I don't collect newer stamps, I don't see myself ever buying another one. It's not like the values in there were accurate, even when it came out. I'd love to see a site that scrapes sources like eBay an bidstart and can figure out what people are actually paying for a stamp. |
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jul 9, 2023 14:39:21 GMT
I wish they would show us the survey.. Jay, the editor of Scott, stated in an interview that they may consider regionals for the online version. Printed regionals would add editorial workload and dilute the sales of the full sets.. If you collect, Ceylon and Sri Lanka you need volumes 2 and 6. They used to offer regionals on scottonline.com. But they stopped doing that. |
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Andy Pastuszak
Member
Praying for my family and everyone in Ukraine.
Posts: 1,591
What I collect: United States, Ukraine, Ireland
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Jul 9, 2023 14:51:51 GMT
If Amos would price their ecopy at something reasonable like US$200-250/yr for access to all volumes (incl. US specialized and 1840-1840) I would gladly pay it. But ~US$700 or so per year is just plain highway robbery, and prices out most collectors completely. Michel Online is about US$200/yr for access to all the info in their main line of catalogues (all 30 of them) and even better is Yvert online where you get the full range of their worldwide catalogues, plus Timbres de France and French Colonies specialized for about US$150/yr. And with both Michel and Yvert, as new volumes are updated you get access to the latest volume, as well as new issue updates. Amos is just way out of line in terms of pricing for its product compared to the comparable products available from its competitors. As for Gibbons, I would love to have a yearly subscription that gives access to all of their regional catalogues ( not the 6 volume Stamps of the World, that catalogue is, IMHO, too simplified). But given how incompetent SG have proven with anything internet related, doubt that will ever happen. I think one problem we face here is work vs value. Countries these days really abuse stamp collectors by issuing an insane amount of stamps every year. This causes catalog publishers to do a LOT of work creating new listings and updating older ones.
On top of that, if the Amos rumors are true, then the whole Scott catalog is maintained as just a bunch of Adobe Framemaker files that need to be manually edited when new listings are edited. That's got to be insanely time consuming. A proper workflow that involves a database of stamps, where you can update information or add to it, and then it auto-generates PDFs to send to a publisher would be better long-term. But I don't see that ever happening.
With the sheer size of these catalogs these days, they also have glue binding, which makes them prone to coming apart.
A few years ago, Amos split all the volumes in half, which significantly increased the price of the catalog.
With price, we're fighting work vs demand. As less people buy the Scott Catalog, the price will need to go up. I'd love to know how many copies they sell a year typically and if that number goes down year after year. I would think at some point, creating these giant printed catalogs will be an unsustainable business model, and the amount they'll need to charge for an online subscription will just be too much for the average person to pay.
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angore
Member
Posts: 5,698
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jul 9, 2023 14:58:20 GMT
One question is if there is a sustainable model for the company?
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As much as I like Michel having an online relational database – the one that's too expensive unless you use it a lot – their ebooks leave a lot to be desired. They're just online, page-flip versions of the PDFs.
I have to send it to my wife just to see.
