|
|
Post by michael on Aug 22, 2023 6:58:42 GMT
I was re-reading this article this morning and thought it might be of interest to members here.
It is from the 1931 Stamp Collector and describes the author's tour of the Perkins Bacon factory.
It details the design process as used for the 1d black and as clearly still being used by Perkins Bacon in 1931. Unfortuanelty it was one of the reason they went bankrupt and few years later in that using this method, they couldn't compete with moderen printing methods.
|
|
madbaker
Member 
Posts: 693 
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
|
Post by madbaker on Aug 22, 2023 14:45:05 GMT
very entertaining read, Michael. Thanks for sharing this. Sorry I can't reply with the eloquence and flair of Mr. Good Hope!
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 25, 2023 2:20:48 GMT
The American Philatelist November 2023
Jacob Perkins
1788 Massachusetts Half cent
|
|
banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 285
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
|
Post by banknoteguy on Dec 25, 2023 4:11:14 GMT
I thought Jacob Perkins designed/patented a press that may have been used to print the Penny Black but I don't think he had anything to do with the design of the stamps. I am pretty sure he died well before 1840. He definitely was involved directly in the Massachusetts state copper coinage of 1787-88.   |
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 25, 2023 4:15:20 GMT
but I don't think he had anything to do with the design of the stamps. I am pretty sure he died well before 1840. That was my thinking as well, kinda of why I posted the snippet. Yet to do research. Great images of the coin ! Any idea how the coin was made? Punched both sides together? how do we know it is half cent?
Quote The press forces the obverse and reverse dies together against the planchet to strike both sides of the coin at once. Circulating coin presses use from 35 to 100 metric tons of pressure to strike the coins, depending on the denomination. |
|
cjoprey
Member
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,443
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
|
Post by cjoprey on Dec 25, 2023 11:27:00 GMT
From Wikipedia:
"The portrait of Victoria was engraved by Charles Heath and his son Frederick, based on a sketch provided by Henry Corbould. Corbould's sketch was in turn based on the 1834 cameo-like head by William Wyon, which was used on a medal to commemorate the Queen's visit to the City of London in 1837."
... and also, which is where Perkins comes in ...
"An original printing press for the Penny Black, the "D" cylinder press invented by Jacob Perkins and patented in 1819, is on display at the British Library in London."
|
|
banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 285
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
|
Post by banknoteguy on Dec 25, 2023 13:58:38 GMT
I was wrong about Jacob Perkins having died by 1840. He died 30 July 1849 at the age of 83 in London. Born 9 July 1766, Newburyport, Massachusetts.  These Massachusetts state coppers were struck on a screw press. Dies engraved by either Jacob Perkins or Joseph Callender. Perkins was better known for his involvement in paper money and an invention called the siderographic process for multiplying engraving plates. Screw presses of the time looked like the images below:    The coppers were dated either 1787 or 1788 and had the denomination (half cent or cent) on the chest of the eagle on the reverse. |
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 25, 2023 22:27:41 GMT
I was wrong about Jacob Perkins having died by 1840. He died 30 July 1849 at the age of 83 in London. Born 9 July 1766, Newburyport, Massachusetts. These Massachusetts state coppers were struck on a screw press. Dies engraved by either Jacob Perkins or Joseph Callender. Perkins was better known for his involvement in paper money and an invention called the siderographic process for multiplying engraving plates. Screw presses of the time looked like the images below: The coppers were dated either 1787 or 1788 and had the denomination (half cent or cent) on the chest of the eagle on the reverse. A Fabulous post ! Bravo! thoroughly enjoyed that. A foggy memory has the background of the Penny Black, (The Rose Engine) was taken from a Perkins Banknote I need to research. |
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 26, 2023 5:37:36 GMT
Yes, the Rose Engine turning, the background to the Penny Black, was by Jacob Perkins, used from similar productions of Banknotes   |
|
banknoteguy
Member
Posts: 285
What I collect: 19th Century US, High denomination US (> $1), 19th century covers US, Indian Feudatory States and most recently I acquired a BigBlue [with about 5,000 stamps] and pristine pages.
|
Post by banknoteguy on Dec 26, 2023 14:36:02 GMT
Yes, I agree the engine turning background on the Penny Black was due to Perkins earlier work on banknotes. The OPs article on the visit to PB was really interesting but it did contain some questionable claims, one on page 636 names Jacob Perkins as the inventor of the rose lathe which is only partially accurate. Such devices had been known for considerable time before Perkins got an 1819 patent for improvements associated with a rose lathe. Probably not one single person can claim invention of the device. Although you can make a strong claim for the Holtzapffel family and firm of London in the late 18th century.
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Dec 27, 2023 12:57:42 GMT
Yes Jacob Perkins didn't invent the rose engine and didn't design the Penny Black, he in fact retired in 1836. Also the design of 'rose engine' as often depicted alongside a penny black was NOT used by Perkins Bacon.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_engine_lathePerkins Bacon used two lathes, a geometrical lathe and a transversing lathe both designed by Asa Spencer (another American) as described in Gary Granzow's book "Line Engraved Security Printing: the Methods of Perkins Bacon 1790-1935 Banknotes and Postage Stamps. Jacob Perkins purchased the rights to the lathes in 1815 and had 1891 UK patents for them. According to Granzow, to further protect the security, quote "Perkins misled the public by describing his engraving lathes as rose engines". An important feature of one of these lathes was that it allowed patterns to be cut on the transfer roller. It was this white line engraving that was unique to Perkins Bacon.
There is a short summary of the engraving process from Granzow's book here:
In all there were 18 steps, including 5 hardenings using 4 transfer rollers to create the die for the Penny Black, an amazing engineering achievement.
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 28, 2023 2:07:43 GMT
Yes Jacob Perkins didn't invent the rose engine and didn't design the Penny Black, he in fact retired in 1836. Also the design of 'rose engine' as often depicted alongside a penny black was NOT used by Perkins Bacon. In all there were 18 steps, including 5 hardenings using 4 transfer rollers to create the die for the Penny Black, an amazing engineering achievement. Wonderful post Michael, I have waited many years for any in depth literature on the "rose engine"  It has fascinated me. Without reading it right now, the idea of engraving on a transfer roller, seems impossible. |
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 28, 2023 5:38:55 GMT
Not Mine
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 28, 2023 6:03:00 GMT
Who knew?
The higher values of the NEWFOUNDLAND Long Coronation set,
was printed on the very same printing presses, of the Penny Black
The 1819 Presses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Dec 28, 2023 21:11:52 GMT
Background "rose engine" engraving, to the Penny Black, and tuppenny blue, and it's source
 rod222, it wasn't as simple as that  .
The amplitude of the white line engraving from that sample background print was too wide for the Penny Black. They did use the background design but had to redo the white line engraving (on a tranfer roller) using Asa Spencer's traversing lathe set with the same settings as originally used but with a smaller amplitude.
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 29, 2023 0:29:32 GMT
michael Fascinating! Thanks Michael. I am still getting my head around "white line engraving" it seems contrary to my idea of printing. With intaglio, the carved line holds the ink. If, with white line engraving, everything but the line, holds the ink, then that to me feels like letterpress. I get the amplitude change, brilliant! I also begin to understand, how the "rose engine" lathe, must have engraved the roller steel, the roller die, must have been held horizontal to the cutting tool, and gently rotated. Perkins proof I like to see here how Her Majesty's bust, whilst shown true, looks tilted forward, (bottom left) when placed on a postage stamp ergo, had to be rotated clockwise to give balance to the stamp vignette. 
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Dec 29, 2023 7:01:42 GMT
linkPerkins Bacon Cyclists Touring Club
|
|
|
|
Post by michael on Jan 9, 2024 11:31:19 GMT
I cannot find any evidence of Perkins "new Factory / premises" at FYE FOOT Lane  (1940) perhaps bombed?
Supposedly named after the width of the laneway
( I take with a grain of salt)
aka
Fye Foot Lane
Fynamoureslane
Fynkes Lane
Fytrilane
Fyve Foot Lane
The Perkins Bacon premises were at 5 Fye Foot Lane (bit of a tongue twister!!) which is shown on a 1944 map:
On an earlier map there are buildings north of no 4 so clearly that area was badly damaged in the air raid on 10 May 1941, one of the largest bombing raids on London during the war.
It is still there today but most of it is a walkway next to a building. Google maps clearly shows this.
A satelite image superimosed on the old map.
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Jan 9, 2024 11:47:15 GMT
The Perkins Bacon premises were at 5 Fye Foot Lane (bit of a tongue twister!!) which is shown on a 1944 map: On an earlier map there are buildings north of no 4 so clearly that area was badly damaged in the air raid on 10 May 1941, one of the largest bombing raids on London during the war. It is still there today but most of it is a walkway next to a building. Google maps clearly shows this. A satelite image superimosed on the old map.
I thought you had missed something at first read,
Then it dawned on me, unlike Australia, numbers in the street go up sequentially
Australia has even number one side, uneven the other side of the street.
Not so in Fye foot lane
Lovely piece of research there, well done you!
Another head scratcher solved. (saved)
  link |
|
madbaker
Member
Posts: 693
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
|
Post by madbaker on Feb 18, 2024 2:53:36 GMT
A friend lent me Mr. Ganzow's book and I spent a wonderful day reading it. He's a good storyteller in addition to being an excellent researcher and archivist.
This isn't my collecting area at all but I found it fascinating. Realizing the added complexity of printing hundreds of thousands of stamps compared to the banknotes of the day, the stresses and tolerances on the steel in a time when they were still figuring out new ways to make steel, etc. It's a minor miracle that the penny black was shipped at all.
I was surprised at how much I was drawn into the story and I have a new appreciation for those early stamps.
|
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Mar 3, 2024 13:24:56 GMT
A rare find for me, INK RECIPES from Perkins Bacon. (Always been something to intrigue me) Auction 2023    |
|
rod222
Member
Posts: 9,921
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
|
Post by rod222 on Mar 12, 2024 7:39:43 GMT
A scarce example of an Perkins Bacon Paper Tax revenue 1861 1856-1861 Type V 1½d per pound, "PAPER LABEL" for a single ream of paper  |
|
|
|
Post by michael on Mar 12, 2024 8:42:42 GMT
A scarce example of an Perkins Bacon Paper Tax revenue 1861 1856-1861 Type V 1½d per pound, "PAPER LABEL" for a single ream of paper It's been on my wants list for some time! |
|
(1940) perhaps bombed?
.
