Partime
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Post by Partime on Oct 17, 2023 18:48:30 GMT
New to TSF, so please forgive me if I am posting in the wrong place. I saw a thread on the Perkins Bacon Printings, but I have some interesting items found on the Waterlow Printing of the 2 cent green, King George VI, and thought that it would be best presented in a new thread. This is Scott / Unitrade 254.
My father-in-law somehow collected a grocery bag full of torn corners of envelopes that were most likely self-addressed letters from the Bank of Montreal. I soaked all of them off. As there were many, many duplicates in that bag, I was able to put my fly speck glasses on and discovered what I would call dropped tools, roller flaws, one-off oddities, and a wide selection of plate scratches which border from one stamp to another. I can post some examples, but let me start with this unique item which is probably a dropped tool mark. It is located on the left stamp in this pair. I've used Topaz Sharpen AI to attempt to provide a better closeup that I can with my scanner.
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Oct 19, 2023 1:20:40 GMT
Here are two more examples of plate flaws on Newfoundland 254. The first is a possible roller flaw showing a mark below the bottom right 2. (Circled in Red.) The other shows a very prominent plate scratch, surrounded by two additional lines in red to help it being spotted. (Notice that it continues onto the stamp just below.) I'm more interested in the roller flaws / dropped tools, but I have an extensive collection of plate scratches for this issue.   |
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Oct 31, 2023 0:12:02 GMT
Here's another flaw just under the King's neck. I've got two copies of this, exactly the same. Some type of Roller Flaw, I assume?   |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Oct 31, 2023 0:36:24 GMT
With respect, I don't understand the oft used "Roller Flaws"
As I understand it, the transfer roller, takes the image to the printing plate.
Now, in this instance, you show, I would consider that a "Plate Flaw"
(something that has happened, subsequent to the transfer, being lint, chads, scratches, cracks etc.)
Reasoning: If that were a fault on the transfer roller, it would have been corrected , (via "proofs " ) prior to acceptance of the transfer roller.
Main "roller" faults are tiny "re-entries"
I welcome any comments from members, if I am mistaken or not understanding the term "roller flaws"
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Oct 31, 2023 3:08:17 GMT
I'd like to say plate flaw, but I have so many duplicates of so many different types of roller/plate flaws, that it seems quite impossible that it wasn't noticed before. Maybe I was lucky and found a group from a very, very late limited printing, but I doubt it. Anyway, I'll post a few more tomorrow.
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Post by michael on Oct 31, 2023 9:00:04 GMT
I thought roller flaws were damage to the roller during the laying down of the plate. This affects subsequent stamps as well, though sometimes the damage can clear itself and only a few stamps are affected.
The resultant flaws are constant and will be in the same position on every sheet.
A classic example is the first St. Helena stamp which has a flaw that affected 20 stamps, positions 89 to 108 out of 240.
Looks like yours are plate or inking flaws.
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Oct 31, 2023 16:26:39 GMT
I've never really gotten my head around the definition of a roller flaw. A plate flaw is probably one that is consistent from example to example until repaired. It could get worse with time, but it doesn't just disappear by itself. A roller flaw, on the other hand, may disappear? In any case, I found an example of a Newfoundland 254 that exhibits a "roller" flaw in the inner frame under the O of the left Postage. The red arrow points to the flaw, while a red circle points out another small feature that is consistent with stamps with this "roller" flaw. Now, just because I was very lucky, I also found a duplicate of this stamp, but with a very prominent plate scratch near the same area. Note that it also has that circled consistent feature. Is this some type of evidence that it is a roller flaw, or is this just muddying the waters, so to speak?
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Post by michael on Oct 31, 2023 19:56:44 GMT
I've never really gotten my head around the definition of a roller flaw. A plate flaw is probably one that is consistent from example to example until repaired. It could get worse with time, but it doesn't just disappear by itself. A roller flaw, on the other hand, may disappear? In any case, I found an example of a Newfoundland 254 that exhibits a "roller" flaw in the inner frame under the O of the left Postage. The red arrow points to the flaw, while a red circle points out another small feature that is consistent with stamps with this "roller" flaw. Now, just because I was very lucky, I also found a duplicate of this stamp, but with a very prominent plate scratch near the same area. Note that it also has that circled consistent feature. Is this some type of evidence that it is a roller flaw, or is this just muddying the waters, so to speak?
Roller flaws (transfer roller flaws) and plate flaws are normally permanent until either corrected or they lessen with plate wear. Neither of these can just 'disappear'.
Perhaps your idea of a 'roller flaw' is different from mine and Rod's?
Can you please confirm how you think roller flaws are created?
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Oct 31, 2023 20:07:07 GMT
Actually, I have the same thoughts as you, just not stated well. The roller flaw (transfer roller flaw) issues are either corrected or "slowly" lessen with plate wear. My thoughts were slowly lessen would eventually lead to something that has lessened enough to have "disappeared". In any case, these roller flaws may have been present from the beginning, but I don't know and it is difficult to find confirming copies other than the ones in my possession. I'll keep looking at stamp bourses, etc.
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renden
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Post by renden on Oct 31, 2023 20:36:19 GMT
I have read with interest since I was raised in a Newspaper/printing family........up to 1923 - My dad had his french Newspaper and Printing office (1960-)- he worked in the "french language" So, I would appreciate definitions of "roller" vs "plate" flaws....I wish he was still around to help me (never worked in the business). I have the impression this thread will never end  All my flyspecker friends (members) are deceased so I cannot have help from them  Appreciate the discussions (further.....) René |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Oct 31, 2023 22:20:33 GMT
I raised the question, as the Australian Commonwealth Specialists catalogues, rarely, if ever, mention "Roller Flaws"
I am thinking this may be an American term.
Roller Flaws, in my understanding, are simply caused by the SIDEROGRAPHER, the fellow that rolls the intermediate (reversed) impression
on to the printing Plate.
The biggest faults there, are "re-entries" or misplaced positions of the stamp in its entirety, and to its neighbours.
Plate flaws are caused after, printing plates have had approval from "Proofs" and become "Imprimatur" (to be printed)
(Any bad "roller flaws" should have been picked up by then)
Plate Flaws, these may be marks caused by "chads" scratches, dents, cracked plates, wiper blades, dropped tools, or wear.
(Always happy to be corrected, in the pursuit of truth)
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Post by michael on Nov 1, 2023 11:35:08 GMT
Some history first. In 1935 when Perkins Bacon went into liquidation, the factory was taken over by W.W. Sprauge and they continued to print the 1932 Resource series for Newfoundland. In 1938 they engraved and printed the 1938 Royal Family series. Both these were printed on hardened steel plates. In 1941 the factory was destroyed during the Blitz and the printing of stamps for Newfoundland (a combination of the 1932 and 1938 series) were transferred to Waterlow & Sons. New plates were required for most values and were made using dies and transfer rollers salvedged from the fire. New dies were however required for the 2c and 3c values. Luckily the perforations are different so it is easy to distinguish Waterlow printings but they were all printed from copper plates, not hardened steel plates. I know nothing about printing from copper plates except they are softer even though I've read they are coated with nickel or similar to make them harder. So I speculate that it would be easier to mark such a plate than a hardened steel plate and of course they wear quicker. Also don't forget these were printed during WW1 so short cuts were often made in ink, paper, manufacturing processes etc. I agree with Rod's last message and would call these plate flaws if you can prove they aren't a flyspec caused by dirt or similar. You can only call them roller flaws if you can prove they exist on more than one stamp in the sheet and are constant from the 1st printing. I suggest you check the BNAP website, they have a Newfoundland study group and all their newsletters are free to download. bnaps.org/studygroups/Newfoundland/newsletters.php |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Nov 1, 2023 13:05:05 GMT
michael Great overview Michael, made fascinating reading. (saved) "I've read they are coated with nickel or similar to make them harder." I have also read this, albeit not in reference to Newfoundland. I cannot recall where, perhaps Easton's "Postage stamps in the making" I also recall, I think the Australian KGV "cliches" were molded, and coated with something similar, that's why there is a plethora of Plate flaws in that series.
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Nov 3, 2023 15:23:10 GMT
OK, I've read the responses and agree that we may have a plate flaw on some of these, because I can't verify whether they are flyspecking issues caused by dirt or some other issue. Here are two copies of a mark over the E in Cents. Both copies are consistent, with no other plate scratches seen. (I have two others, if interested.)   |
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Post by michael on Nov 3, 2023 20:26:27 GMT
You might find the following article useful to read:
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Partime
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Post by Partime on Nov 3, 2023 20:45:15 GMT
Here is the Figure they are referring to: Spewing, Figure 2e, is about the closest I've seen to explain this phenomenon. But it seems to me that their definition of Spewing could mean these ink blobs in many different areas. My examples usually point to just one, though I have seen some minor differences elsewhere. In any case, thanks so much for the article.
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 3, 2023 22:00:01 GMT
Here is the Figure they are referring to: Spewing, Figure 2e, is about the closest I've seen to explain this phenomenon. But it seems to me that their definition of Spewing could mean these ink blobs in many different areas. My examples usually point to just one, though I have seen some minor differences elsewhere. In any case, thanks so much for the article.
You must be a "printing specialist".......late dad was but I had other interests - Thanks for showing and completing previous POST !! René |
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