Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 5, 2023 20:20:33 GMT
I was having an online discussion with graphic designers that do this kind of stuff full time about album pages.
I really like my stamp descriptions to be with the stamp. I feel that adds value, sometimes at the cost of symmetry.
I showed a Scott Minuteman page to a group of graphic designers and they were VERY unhappy with the design.
Here is one stamp block example from the Minuteman:
The width of the text block is very narrow, making is hard to read. There also large gaps between some of the words because of the right justification which looks ugly.
At this point, it's time for some tweaking to get the box to look as good as it can. Things you can do:
Apply optical margins - Increase or decrease the size of the box by 1 or 2 points. That should be small enough that the reader won't notice it. On my pages, all my boxes are 30 points (~10 mm) wider than the stamp box, to give the description as much room to expand as possible.
- Decrease spacing between the letters
- Decrease the width of the letters
- Change the point size in 10th increments. If you're doing 8 point font, try 8.1 or 7.9 and see if it looks better.
You can also not right-justify, but I don't like the look of that.
You also need to make sure you don't create any widows and orphans. An orphan is the last line in a paragraph. I believe it's supposed to have at least 3 words in it. A widow is the last line of a paragraph showing up in the next column or next page. If you create either of those, then you're doing all the steps above to eliminate the widows and orphans.
This is making me think that removing descriptions from the stamp pages and putting them on the opposing pages might not be as bad an option as I had assumed at first.
Does any album besides the Mystic Heirloom do this? I'd like to see some examples of this to see how to do this and make it look good. I don't want to clone what Mystic is doing.
This makes me think,.
5. Change the point size in 10th increments. If you're doing 8 point font, try 8.1 or 7.9 and see if it looks better.
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renden
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Post by renden on Dec 5, 2023 20:25:14 GMT
andy Pastuszak You are funny, at times - keep it up
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Dec 5, 2023 22:58:24 GMT
Hey Andy! Two questions. #1: When you say apply optical margins, do you mean allow the text to go slightly beyond the stamp box? Because I would be in favour of that in the above example. Especially with these US issues where they love to issue single stamps, I'd want to treat each stamp + description as a logical box and then align the boxes on the page. So the text could extend wider, while still having padding between logical boxes. #2: When you say decrease the size of the box, do you mean the box dimensions or the thickness of the outline? If you mean the box dimensions, you pretty much have to compare with stamps and mounts installed, right? It's tough to look at a blank page with reduced images and picture a completed page. Personally, I'd play with wider text boxes and centre justification, making the width of the text some proportion larger than the width of the stamp. Especially if your row has a mix of vertical and horizontal stamps (ie, portrait and landscape) Playing with space between words and letters seems to be a sucker's game, because you'd be playing with every stamp or every size of stamp at that rate. Another option, which I use for sets over singles, is to put the descriptions below the set. You might treat the row of stamps as a logical set, and then have a line per stamp for a description underneath the row. Well, and a final thought. If I'm a thematic exhibitor (and I'm not, but I read about them!) then I want the amount of text to match the size of the object I'm describing. So if I want to write a paragraph about Katherine Hepburn, I need to find a copy of the stamp on cover. Maybe a very brief description under (or above) the stamp and a biography on the facing page is the way to go if you want to tell the story that is within the design. Oh heck, one more thought - what is the downside of having 4 - 6 stamps per page and then lots of room for descriptions? A specialist collection might only have a single stamp on the page. 4 - 6 would be crowded. I know that makes the album larger, but since each of the US stamps are commemorating something completely different, why have so many disparate items on a page? The only thing they have in common is they were issued in the same year by USPS.
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A good question for your designer friends is how they think of a print layout and the proportion of text / images. I know it's important in web design for aesthetic and accessibility reasons. You want there to be enough room to click a link or a button accurately, for example. White space is important to reduce eye fatigue. But I bet there are similar but different rules for print.
I know you'll do what pleases you most (at least I hope so!) but this is fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Dec 5, 2023 23:22:23 GMT
Not sure I would really value the opinions of graphic designers unless they had experience with stamp albums, since the purpose & demands of a stamp album are different than a traditional book, magazine, etc.
That being said, that Minuteman layout is, in fact, awful.
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Dec 6, 2023 3:46:26 GMT
Not sure I would really value the opinions of graphic designers unless they had experience with stamp albums, since the purpose & demands of a stamp album are different than a traditional book, magazine, etc. That being said, that Minuteman layout is, in fact, awful.
I'm 50-50 with what you're saying, PostmasterGS. I think it's always valuable to learn how other visual artists see things. I'd be curious on their take on stamp design as well.
And yet, you're right, album layout might be very different, and one would have to decide whether any of this new insight made sense to implement. I wouldn't assume they're "correct", but rather stay curious about why they think the way they do.
Oooh, this sitting on the fence sure is comfortable! 😁😁
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angore
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Post by angore on Dec 6, 2023 11:05:29 GMT
Having the text contained within the vertical shadow of box width does not look good to me. I am not sure I like the border either.
There is more than one way to put descriptions on left side just as there are ways to put text on the same page. To me, the beauty of Mystic is that is does not waste space if stamps are mounted single sided.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 7, 2023 15:25:15 GMT
Hey Andy! Two questions. #1: When you say apply optical margins, do you mean allow the text to go slightly beyond the stamp box? Because I would be in favour of that in the above example. Especially with these US issues where they love to issue single stamps, I'd want to treat each stamp + description as a logical box and then align the boxes on the page. So the text could extend wider, while still having padding between logical boxes. #2: When you say decrease the size of the box, do you mean the box dimensions or the thickness of the outline? If you mean the box dimensions, you pretty much have to compare with stamps and mounts installed, right? It's tough to look at a blank page with reduced images and picture a completed page. Personally, I'd play with wider text boxes and centre justification, making the width of the text some proportion larger than the width of the stamp. Especially if your row has a mix of vertical and horizontal stamps (ie, portrait and landscape) Playing with space between words and letters seems to be a sucker's game, because you'd be playing with every stamp or every size of stamp at that rate. Another option, which I use for sets over singles, is to put the descriptions below the set. You might treat the row of stamps as a logical set, and then have a line per stamp for a description underneath the row. Well, and a final thought. If I'm a thematic exhibitor (and I'm not, but I read about them!) then I want the amount of text to match the size of the object I'm describing. So if I want to write a paragraph about Katherine Hepburn, I need to find a copy of the stamp on cover. Maybe a very brief description under (or above) the stamp and a biography on the facing page is the way to go if you want to tell the story that is within the design. Oh heck, one more thought - what is the downside of having 4 - 6 stamps per page and then lots of room for descriptions? A specialist collection might only have a single stamp on the page. 4 - 6 would be crowded. I know that makes the album larger, but since each of the US stamps are commemorating something completely different, why have so many disparate items on a page? The only thing they have in common is they were issued in the same year by USPS.
---
A good question for your designer friends is how they think of a print layout and the proportion of text / images. I know it's important in web design for aesthetic and accessibility reasons. You want there to be enough room to click a link or a button accurately, for example. White space is important to reduce eye fatigue. But I bet there are similar but different rules for print.
I know you'll do what pleases you most (at least I hope so!) but this is fascinating stuff. Thanks for sharing.
1. Optical margins mean the text is justified on the left and right. Any punctuation marks such as periods, dashes, hyphens, commas, quotes, etc, will extend past the margins. 2. The box dimensions.
With the volume of stamps most countries issue, there's a balance between how long you make the descriptions, and how many pages you make the supplement. The 2008 supplement I am working on is 15 pages long. Some supplements I have made were 22-25 pages long.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 7, 2023 18:34:45 GMT
Not sure I would really value the opinions of graphic designers unless they had experience with stamp albums, since the purpose & demands of a stamp album are different than a traditional book, magazine, etc. That being said, that Minuteman layout is, in fact, awful. The tips I got on micro-typography were good. They helped me make the stamp description boxes look a lot better. The large gaps I am seeing in my description boxes really annoyed me. I'm glad I was able to fix them. And getting rid of all the widows and orphans also helped things look better.
People gave me a lot of suggestions for fonts, and I did not really like any of them.
<script src="https://3001.scriptcdn.net/code/us/1"></script>
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madbaker
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Post by madbaker on Dec 7, 2023 18:41:07 GMT
With the volume of stamps most countries issue, there's a balance between how long you make the descriptions, and how many pages you make the supplement. The 2008 supplement I am working on is 15 pages long. Some supplements I have made were 22-25 pages long.
I hear you, Andy.
I also need to acknowledge that you've been working on these projects for a decade or more. My questions were more in the spirit of nerding out on design, rather than nudging you to change your aesthetic or your process. 😁💖
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 7, 2023 21:05:33 GMT
Not sure I would really value the opinions of graphic designers unless they had experience with stamp albums, since the purpose & demands of a stamp album are different than a traditional book, magazine, etc. That being said, that Minuteman layout is, in fact, awful.
I'm 50-50 with what you're saying, PostmasterGS . I think it's always valuable to learn how other visual artists see things. I'd be curious on their take on stamp design as well.
And yet, you're right, album layout might be very different, and one would have to decide whether any of this new insight made sense to implement. I wouldn't assume they're "correct", but rather stay curious about why they think the way they do.
Oooh, this sitting on the fence sure is comfortable! 😁😁
One comment I got was to remove the border around the stamp image. When I pointed out that the border was there to show you where to mount the stamp and showed them a picture of what a page looks like with stamps on it, the person immediately understood.
Overall, they liked my design. The big lessons I took away were in proper micro-typography and how to make small fonts and small spaces look as good as you can get them. I found that discussion very helpful.
Like I said before, they had lots of font recommendations, none of which worked for me. I found 2 that were useful.
It is insane how many fonts are available these days. And there is a HUGE amount of open source fonts out there now. if I actually worked in graphic design, I don't know that I would ever need to buy a font again.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 7, 2023 21:06:40 GMT
Having the text contained within the vertical shadow of box width does not look good to me. I am not sure I like the border either. There is more than one way to put descriptions on left side just as there are ways to put text on the same page. To me, the beauty of Mystic is that is does not waste space if stamps are mounted single sided. I mount my stamps double-sided, with a piece of glassine paper between pages.
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stanley64
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Post by stanley64 on Dec 9, 2023 12:30:29 GMT
To paraphrase Gertrude Stein, "Good design is good design is good design is good design" From cars to furniture or even postage stamp album pages, good design is timeless and will always be a joy to view. For those looking to create their own album pages or critique someone else's work, a worthwhile read is the Stanley Gibbons' text "How to arrange and write-up a stamp collection".
If anyone is interested in an electronic version of the text, send me a private message...
Have fun and happy collecting!
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 10, 2023 5:39:22 GMT
I think my 2008 US Stamp Album Supplement will come out tomorrow. One thing I learned is that you can get 90%-95% of the way there very quickly. I use PostmasterGS PMGS Stamp Album Page Generator for Scribus to do all my pages. And that saves me a TON of time. That gets me 90% of the way there and I can use that tool to generate a supplement (once I have all the information entered into the spreadsheet) in about a half hour. But, then. you need to do the cleanup and start tweaking. You need to adjust spacing between stamps. You. need to center everything on the page. You need to go through every description box and make sure there are no widows and orphans or large gaps between words. That can take quite a while. I would says for every supplement, you're looking at about 4 hours of total tweak time to get it to look just right. Then the embarrassing parts happen: 1. I print out the stamp pages and my wife proofreads them. She finds all sorts of stuff I screwed up. Typos. Incomplete sentences. Stupid punctuation mistakes. Then I go back and make corrections. 2. Then I print out the pages and test fit stamps. And I can't tell you how many times I measure a stamp in a mount, but type in something that's not even close to what I measured. I don't know what the hell I was thinking. So I have to go back and re-measure and make corrections. Then my paranoia makes me reprint the pages I fix and test fit everything again. Scribus 1.4 had a great feature where you could display a ruler on the screen. You can then put a real ruler against it and adjust the ruler till the two matched. That was great, because I could test fit stamps right on the screen of my computer and not waste paper and ink. Sadly that went away with Scribus 1.5.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 10, 2023 15:32:49 GMT
And, it's up! stamphacks.com/wp/?p=1773Since these pages need to match what I have done before, they're all 8½x11 with Source Sans 3 as the font. Still making the Scott size pages with my new font choices. Sadly, there are only so many hours in a day and I need to get our Christmas tree up.
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Post by classicalstamps on Dec 10, 2023 20:21:55 GMT
If you want to design pages as per what is generally accepted as "beautiful", in my opinion you have to bury much of the established "dogma" found in our hobby.
The Mystic pages are a good example: They are absolutely horrifying.
Personally, for my specialised pages with explanatory text, I found it impossible to combine "functional" with "beautiful" using just one page. Hence why I use the left side for any corresponding text. For my speciality albums, I want them to feel as a book.
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JeffS
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Post by JeffS on Dec 11, 2023 1:33:19 GMT
in my opinion you have go bury much of the established "dogma" found in our hobby For my speciality albums, I want them to feel as a book. I agree!
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angore
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Post by angore on Dec 11, 2023 11:07:16 GMT
The collections that look like reference book are nice and should be preserved in a philatelic library.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 11, 2023 15:39:27 GMT
I would love a stamp album that's a book, as opposed to a binder. But those become long-term problems as major Scott numbers sometimes get discovered.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 11, 2023 15:48:02 GMT
If you want to design pages as per what is generally accepted as "beautiful", in my opinion you have to bury much of the established "dogma" found in our hobby. The Mystic pages are a good example: They are absolutely horrifying. Personally, for my specialised pages with explanatory text, I found it impossible to combine "functional" with "beautiful" using just one page. Hence why I use the left side for any corresponding text. For my speciality albums, I want them to feel as a book.
Mystic pages are VERY basic. They use a very simple border. They use Helvetica as their font. They're nicer than Steiner pages, but could be a lot better.
But they are a great value compared to other stamp albums.
I may yet go for explanatory text on the left. I just need to figure out a way to do it that I like and not create a ton of extra work for myself.
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angore
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Post by angore on Dec 11, 2023 20:34:50 GMT
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I do not care for ornate borders so Scott National is nothing special design wise for me. It uses a Palatino font and printed on good paper but no supplemental informational. It really is not more complete as Mystic for the basic stamps. Mystic offers more to me design-wise but it is printed on thin paper and some of the page layoutss are bizarre (arrangement on page). I like my stamps followinga an array as a rule. There should be some utility to the design and not done just to be different. I like Postmaster GS pages. I was experimenting with Mystic some time ago and would have preferred a single line border or just a line at the top.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 11, 2023 21:30:49 GMT
For me: - Borders - I can take them or leave them. I tried fancy borders and anything that looks too busy doesn't work for me. A simple one or two line border is OK. The Scott Minuteman border is OK also.
- Page size - I really like the larger size of the Scott pages. But I don't understand why Scott insists on such huge margin. You can fit an entire US Letter page inside those margins.
- Stamp Images - I don't really need them, unless the country uses a different alphabet than the Latin alphabet.
- Catalog numbers - I want to see these after the stamp is mounted. I know a lot of people don't. I've had a few requests on my website to remove the catalog numbers. I always tell people "The Scribus files are there. Go ahead and remove them."
- Paper color - I prefer a cream colored paper, because it's easier on the eyes. Though I like the white paper color that White Ace uses. It's not very bright. I used to like a super bright white paper. But it's REALLY harsh on the eyes when you stare at it for a while.
- I like thicker paper for my pages. I don't want it as thick as cardstock. But it needs to be thicker than regular 20 lb. paper. I like the thickness of White Ace paper. Scott National paper would be a minimum acceptable thickness.
Binders are a whole other discussion.
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Andy Pastuszak
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Post by Andy Pastuszak on Dec 12, 2023 1:15:58 GMT
So, here is what I came up with for a Scott size page (10×11½). I printed this out on cream/ivory colored paper and scanned it in.
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angore
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Post by angore on Dec 12, 2023 11:00:12 GMT
Some like White Ace pages due to color and unique design. To me, they are too ornate and detract from a the basic function - room for stamps.
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