dorincard
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What I collect: My focus is on Wild Mammals on maximum cards. Occasionally, I get or create maximum cards with other animals, or any other topic.
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Post by dorincard on Dec 15, 2023 4:12:17 GMT
"This ain't no flimsy thread", but a solid one! 😉
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Dec 15, 2023 11:12:07 GMT
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neilmac
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Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 16, 2023 1:48:37 GMT
VP 4 the Pigeon GramVP4 was actually the 7th Pigeongram stamp issued, the day after the first Marotiri overprint which was overprinted on the Blue green SPECIAL POST. The design was pretty much the same as VP2 but with the words SPECIAL POST replaced by the words PIGEON GRAM. The printing was done in more of a light blue colour and on poor quality paper with a buff colour (no watermark). However the whole production process had to be repeated and so 6 carvings were used to prepare 6 moulds in wax in which copper electrolytes were made. This time the printing plate was three across and two deep, and each plate was impressed twice on to the paper creating sheets of 12. For the train spotters (like me) each impression can be identified. Below are some images sliced and diced from Te Papa of impressions made from the plates which are held by the Canterbury Museum. The comments are some wise words from Reg Walker. Type 1: The two lines above 'A' of 'GRAM' are joined. Type 2: There is a white mark over 'S' of 'SHILLING' at right. Type 3: The white vertical line at extreme left almost runs into the left edge at top. Type 4: The centre 'A' of 'GREAT' is clear Type 5: Electro 5 has none of the other identifications Type 6: There is a flaw on 'G' of 'GREAT'
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neilmac
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What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 16, 2023 2:16:48 GMT
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neilmac
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What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 16, 2023 20:01:49 GMT
Marotiri Mining SyndicateFurther up the East Coast of NZ is a group of islands we call the Hen & Chickens. The Maori name for the biggest island is Marotiri. In 1899 a mining syndicate began work on the island and Mr Howie was approached to provide a pigeon service. He agreed and ran some trials pre stamps, which were successful. The suggested volume of pigeon grams indicated that the service could sustain its own stamp, and so it was decided to produce some additional copies of VP2 and then overprint them 'MAROTIRI Pigeongram' in two lines, with 'Pigeongram' again cancelling out the words 'SPECIAL POST' and Marotiri cancelling out Great Barrier. This stamp is known as VP5. VP5 were also printed in sheets of 12 like VP4, different from the 24 stamp sheet printing of the original VP2. The perfs were also different coming down from 12 1/2 to 11 1/2 - 12. Why were more VP2 stamps printed and then overprinted? It was suggested that remaining stocks were running low but there were many of the VP2 stamps unaccounted for (over 3,000) and VP4 was also in production (It was issued the day after these!). More questions arose as the paper being used for these and VP4 was different - and yet being printed by same folks - Wilson & Horton. Only 20 sheets were printed - 240 stamps. These are rare unused and very rare used on piece. They are incredibly under catalogued for what they are. In any case they were issued on 24 August 1899, the day before VP4 and six weeks after the Agencies stamps. Here are some images, sadly none of which are from my own collection! VP5 Forgery AlertThe complete sheet existing is important. I have recently seen a copy of the Marotiri overprint where the alignment is different, in that the word 'Pigeongram' is more to the left than the word 'MAROTIRI'. We can clearly see from the sheet that there is no such stamp. Because of this observation, one tends to have a closer inspection and can see that the font of the overprint is not 100% the same either. I'll try and get an image up Buyer beware, this is a fake and where there is one there will be others.
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 16, 2023 20:44:54 GMT
VP5 FlimsiesUnfortunately (for me) the following VP5 flimsy images are not from my collection either - well they are from my collection of Pigeongram images, which is extensive, but it's not quite like owning the real thing is it? Nonetheless they are great pieces. The images are taken from the Oded Eliashar auction held at Seigel's in 2002. For those keen to see what a magnificent collection he had you can follow this link to Siegel Auction House. auction.siegelauctions.com/sale/854?PageNo=2 Interesting to note though that he bought a substantial collection off a Kiwi chap that gave him most of this in one hit.
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 16, 2023 21:17:40 GMT
VP6 Marotiri RedFor many this is the iconic Pigeon Post stamp, and yet it is not Great Barrier! It's iconic because of its bright colour and the fact that used on piece it is the most rare of all Pigeon Post stamps. In fact there is only one known. And it's not in my collection. Mr. Bolitho asked Mr. Richardson to develop a new design and this is what he came up with. A flying pigeon with a letter in its beak. The production process was similar with a wooden block created, wax impressions made and copper electrolytes manufactured. The sheets were 2 x 6 with a 111/2-12 perf. 100 sheets were printed - I know you can do the maths. That's 600 stamps. These are catalogued at a ridiculously low price mint. The stamps were issues on 15 September 1899 and were only used a few times. The copper syndicate didn't really hit their payload on Marotiri and so the pigeon post service was ceased in early 1900. No-one knows the exact date. This is a block from my collection. Please note, the image is a good quality one, and no your eyes are not playing tricks after a few whiskies last night - the top two stamps appear to have a double strike and so make the image blurry. However there was only one strike in the printing. It is thought that there was a double strike on the wax when making the plates and so every sheet looks the same. The only flimsy known to exist. There are other used copies of the stamp, and some images are shown below. The first two are considered genuine, but the third is considered suspect. You can see the end of the word 'Cancelled' but this is not known to have been used. However given the strange circumstances surrounding the stamps and their history nothing can be known for sure. There is a fourth used copy which I have seen, which has a violet circular stamp on it. This is considered by me to be a fake. This cancellation is very similar to the VP1 forgeries with cancellations. Buyer beware!
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gc
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Posts: 289
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Post by gc on Dec 17, 2023 0:57:48 GMT
Hi Neil Does the third stamp have a 5D cancellation rather than your suggestion of ED Cheers Grant
GREAT material by the way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 17, 2023 2:24:40 GMT
VP8 Essay (not forgery).There was once much hoo-ha about a forgery of the VP8. The theories that abounded were in retrospect (as always) quite outrageous. The two stamps below show the obvious VP8 as used on partial, while the other is a rather poor copy of the 'forgery' held in the dungeons of Te Papa Museum of New Zealand. Only it's not - it's an essay - or in simple terms a design that was not progressed. When this item first came to be noticed it was suggested that the obviously American forger didn't know the symbol for shilling 1/- so used an 'S'. He must have been some voyeur to copy a stamp he hadn't seen I reckon because obviously he would have seen the 1/- and just copied it. There were other theories but actually this is just an essay of a design.
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 17, 2023 2:27:17 GMT
Hi Neil Does the third stamp have a 5D cancellation rather than your suggestion of ED Cheers Grant GREAT material by the way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hey Grant, No it's been cancelled twice by a 'CANCELLED' post mark. The image is not the best sorry. If you look closely you see the 'ED' coming from centre top down, and then the 'NCE' running up the stamp from the bottom, creating by coincidence a 5 looking shape.
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 17, 2023 2:33:18 GMT
POP QUIZ!Ok to test your assimilation of the content of this thread, what do you notice about this item and what's your deduction?
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 17, 2023 2:47:50 GMT
Without looking too much into the history to date, and taking a wild stab at it, has this pair been cancelled by the oppositions cancelling device? The 'Original' company Vs the 'Agency' etc ....
Also, wasn't the 6d rate used for Auckland to the Barrier? whereas 1/- was the rate for the Barrier to Auckland. 2 6d stamps used so had the 1/- stamp been used up and more stock was being ordered?
Let me down gently :-)
Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 17, 2023 2:51:29 GMT
Does the third stamp have a 5D cancellation rather than your suggestion of ED Here is the 3rd item shown by Neil : and here it is using Retroreveal : and highlighting what I see there : Make of it what you will, although as Neil stated, not a '5' but an 'E' with an 'O' overlapped. Dave
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
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What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 17, 2023 3:01:48 GMT
PROOFS There are proofs available. Many considered proofs are in my opinion just imperforate stamps, but given they were printed at the same time and on similar/same paper it can be hard to tell. There are proofs of the VP7 and VP8. The sole known proof shown below resides in Te Papa Museum of New Zealand. Whether imperforate stamps or actual proofs it matters not. Secure them for your collection as they are scarce, and full of a lot more history than your average stamps. And if you find some and you don't want them, let me know and I'll add them to mine.
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 17, 2023 3:09:38 GMT
Does the third stamp have a 5D cancellation rather than your suggestion of ED Here is the 3rd item shown by Neil : and here it is using Retroreveal : and highlighting what I see there : Make of it what you will, although as Neil stated, not a '5' but an 'E' with an 'O' overlapped. Dave Nice workDave. I don't think the yellow o connects - I think it's a 'C' and the third yellow figure to left shows the beginning fingers of the 'E' hence my thinking git was same postmark but reversed and turned upside down. I do believe it's a fake. Just on that point, I have just read something interesting and so would like to note that some (including Reg Walker) use the words Forgery and Counterfeit not as synonyms but to have different meanings. A Counterfeit stamp is designed to fool a stamp collector whilst a Forged stamp is designed to fool the Postal service and get free postage. Interesting - I may need to go back through and edit this thread!
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DK
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Posts: 1,532
What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 17, 2023 7:13:00 GMT
Yes. I see now what you mean Here is the image again, but rotated and the 'O' made into a 'C' to make a partial 'CANCELLED'. I believe you are correct there Neil. Well done ... Dave
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gc
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Post by gc on Dec 17, 2023 16:51:51 GMT
Great work Dave Using Retro-reveal does make it obvious. Cheers Grant
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
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What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 17, 2023 21:41:07 GMT
Pigeon Post Stamp Market Value.Thanks Rod! This has motivated some thinking from me on the market economics and value of the Pigeon Post Stamps compared to some others. It is interesting looking at these catalogue values, that the availability of these stamps is quite low in mint, and incredibly low used on piece. So low in fact that while the Christchurch 1d Claret can fetch a market rate of about $35,000 MUH and $25,000 fine mint, a stamp like the Marotiri overprint of which there were only 240 overprinted fetches about $2,000 and if used on piece could fetch around the $20,000 mark, even though there are only 2-3 known to exist at this juncture. Another way of looking at it is to compare the current market costs of the 1931 Health Stamps. Iconic as they are, just over 74,000 of the 1d and 111,000 of the 2d values were sold respectively in a period between 31 October 1931 and 29 February 1932. The sales however were very poor because of the depression. Nonetheless today they command $350-400+ for MUH and $100-150 used, pretty similar to most Great Barrier Pigeon Post stamps. And yet let's look at total production (not sold) of the Pigeon Post stamps: - VP 1 - 1800
- VP 2 - 4,800 (less 960 for below issue)
- VP 3 - 960 of the above stamp of which only 160 were used. Most of the remaining 800 were damaged and discarded - some to collectors.
- VP 4 - 4,650
- VP 5 - 240
- VP 6 - 600
- VP 7 - 10,000
- VP 8 - 5,000
That's a total of 27,090 stamps produced compared to the 185,000+ of the 1931 Health stamps!
A question for you.
How can a stamp VP 6 of which only 600 were produced be catalogued at a similar price to VP 4 with 4,650. And how could either of these be in the same realm of the 1931 Health stamp where 10,000s were sold. The answer is of course market forces. The reality is that while the Pigeon Post stamps are seen as collectible, they are not as popular as main stream NZ stamps such as FFQ and 1931 Health stamps, etc. And as such the opportunity to collect one of the world's rarest selection of stamps remains viable for the average collector.
But market forces can change, so I for one am buying the Pigeon Post stamps I come across and adding them to my collection while I can afford to. When someone gets a message through to collectors that these are the thing to be in to, well who knows what might happen. I don't collect based on value but nonetheless an investment while collecting is not silly is it!?
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 17, 2023 22:40:35 GMT
Yup. Good 'ole "supply & demand" Buy 'em up while you can. There are not that many around really. To make us see the 8 types that are available more clearly than the pics Rod posted from the ACS simplified catalog (above) I thought that I would mock up a composite of the 8 types - VP1 to VP8. and the quantity printed of each: - VP 1 - 1800
- VP 2 - 4,800 (less 960 for below issue)
- VP 3 - 960 of the above stamp of which only 160 were used. Most of the remaining 800 were damaged and discarded - some to collectors.
- VP 4 - 4,650
- VP 5 - 240
- VP 6 - 600
- VP 7 - 10,000
- VP 8 - 5,000
Dave
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 17, 2023 23:09:31 GMT
Hi Neil, "market forces" indeed. A nice phrase that covers all ills. Personally, I have defeated my demons, of "desire" within philately. Price, value, for me, has absolutely no relevance beyond establishing a rough scarcity number. As any long time collector, we all go through times. when seeking a major issue to complete a set with our own disposable income limits. I didn't like the feeling, I looked at myself, and thought, this is not "fun" it is a yoke to bear. I collect, within my budgets, I snipe to the limit I believe I would pay for an item and happily accept the result either way, I win about 20% of my bids. Some items will always be beyond my purchasing power, I accept that. In my journey, two stand out, I bid on an French Belgian Pneumatic cover, with an estimated value of $5000 $7000 at the time It didn't seem to have much interest (no bidding) I was out bid in the hammer fall at $160. I had intended to "flip" it, on reflection, the feeling was not comfortable, "never again" was my decision. Second, I have a very good collection of Turkey, and I came across a souvenir sheet, I had no information on my nemesis, at the dealership auction, whom also collected Turkey, had bid on a similar sheet weeks before and paid $240. I felt rather smug, when I purchased at hammer for $80 and thought I had a rare sheet, missing from most collections. After weeks of research, the answer came in from a specialist in Turkey, the sheet was purely a "phantasy" and had a real value of $0 I can admire, collections that include rarities, high purchase prices tend to have scarce material go to people who can adequately conserve material correctly. But outrageous prices like the British Guiana 1c Magenta, that gives owners the right to scribble their initials in vandalism on the back, just leaves me "meh" You have a beautiful collection, worthy of due pride, you as a prominent collector, of within that discipline, and only you, can estimate the current value, of any item, and how far you would go, to secure it. I wonder how many of us, would confess as to ever having "buyers remorse" Catalogue values are meaningless, other than a guide, the real value is established when you raise your paddle.
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 20, 2023 23:57:23 GMT
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Dec 21, 2023 3:40:11 GMT
Without looking too much into the history to date, and taking a wild stab at it, has this pair been cancelled by the oppositions cancelling device? The 'Original' company Vs the 'Agency' etc .... Also, wasn't the 6d rate used for Auckland to the Barrier? whereas 1/- was the rate for the Barrier to Auckland. 2 6d stamps used so had the 1/- stamp been used up and more stock was being ordered? Let me down gently :-) Dave You're on to it Dave. These have been stamped by the opposition's postmark. I have no idea how or why given they weren't colocated so there's an interesting story out there somewhere. The 6d rate was from Barrier to Auckland as the pigeons were happiest heading home. The Auckland to Barrier rate was 1/- as it required harder/additional training. So this pigeongram was sent from Auckland (assumption) so postmarked at Newton Road rather than Ponsonby. However - Food for thought - The Agency sold its stamps through Champtaloop and Cooper, a bookseller and stationer based on Queen Street. I wondered if someone bought some stamps and flimsy, took them home and wrote a message, and then innocently went to the wrong organisation to send it!? i'm theorising of course - I have no idea and the truth is probably more grand than that.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Dec 21, 2023 19:43:27 GMT
Oh that's good that I got that 1st part right - but thinking about the 6d to Auckland from the Barrier & 1/- for the trip back to the Barrier part - that is for the 'Agency's stamps only then? As all of the ones from VP1 to VP6 are for 1/- values only! Is this the 'Agency's' competition beginning to lower the rates?
Dave
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jan 9, 2024 22:10:15 GMT
Here is an example of a forgery of the Marotiri overprint I referred to in an earlier comment. Pretty poor effort but not everyone will know. The obvious part is that the Pigeongram overprint is more left aligned than the MAROTIRI overprint. The real one copy below shows clearly that it should be other way around. But close inspection shows how poor the overprint is not to mention postmark and many other factors. To quote Hill Street Blues "Be extra careful out there today."
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
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What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jan 31, 2024 20:03:19 GMT
The Mount Cook Pigeon Post R.D. Samuel "The Captain Coqk" Number 508, April 1992 Volume 20 Number 3 Page 31
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neilmac
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Post by neilmac on Jan 31, 2024 20:04:03 GMT
In January 1903 a pigeon-post mail service began from North Egmont Mountain House to New Plymouth. It supplied the Taranaki Herald with daily information on visitors and conditions on the mountain over the summers of 1903 and 1904. New Plymouth butcher W. H. Phipps – seen here around 1905 – organised the service and supplied the birds.
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jan 31, 2024 20:11:16 GMT
How interesting neilmac Did these services include stamps or labels to show payment for the service or were these purely 'in-house' services for their respective businesses? NB: Seeing Mr Phipps's occupation, I wouldn't want to be a poorly performing pigeon in his loft!! lol Dave
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DK
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What I collect: Classic NZ, Closed NZ Post Offices, New Zealand Postal History, Classic Br. Empire, Pacific Islands, France
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Post by DK on Jan 31, 2024 20:20:37 GMT
Found this on the internet : Rock pigeons were introduced to New Zealand as racing or messenger pigeons. The most interesting use of their talents came in 1897, with the establishment of a pigeon-post service from Great Barrier Island to Auckland. This is the original dovecote in Newton, Auckland. The service lasted until 1908.
Dave
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neilmac
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Thanks for having me - glad to be here. Looking forward to learning more in 2024! Cheers!
Posts: 242
What I collect: NZ - especially FFQ, Pigeongrams and Postage Dues
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Post by neilmac on Jan 31, 2024 20:30:11 GMT
The great misnomer is that Great Barrier pigeon Post were the first. They weren't by a long shot. They were the first with stamps.
Pigeon post was used reasonably extensively in mining NZ. Fricker himself had been sending pigeon grams for nearly a decade before Great Barrier from the Waihi area. Others too. Here's another example - these from Ohinemuri - just down the road from where I live.
Neil Climie writes in the 1983 Ohinemuri Regional History Journal...
"In 1964 when our "Ohinemuri Regional History Journal" was in its infancy, I spent many hours in the Thames Library perusing early copies of the "Thames Advertiser", gleaning information about our "beginnings". Unfortunately there are now no spare copies of Journal 2 (October 1964), but in it we featured press messages in connection with the Opening of the Karangahake Goldfield many of which were per "Pigeon Express".
EXAMPLE - 23 January 1875.
"There are about 40 diggers here at the Paeroa Camp. Dan Sealey and 9 others are out. Mr. Thorp, Johnny Beeche and Mr. Bennett have an interest in a Reef. Mr. Skidmore is just in and reports well of the creeks. The Maoris are very friendly. Their potato crop is good and they are now getting in their wheat. An experienced miner warns that Ohinemuri will never be a poor man's diggings. Capital will be needed for development".
EXAMPLE - 2 MARCH 1875
"Landing at the Puke, I struck out for the Paeroa. Everybody had a swag but me, and I carried a box with two gentle doves. I found the Paeroa pretty lively and learned what had already taken place. My mate had just ridden in from the Karangahake ridge. Writing a pigeongram from his dictation, I threw up one of my birds and had the pleasure of seeing it go off like a dart for Thames".
EXAMPLE - 3 MARCH 1875 - 9-20 a.m.
"I started this morning for the Prospectors' Claim. From this spur, the Warden's Marquee can be seen and the crowd around ... 10-20 a.m. Men pegging ... Mr. Adam Porter the first man up here where I am.... Shall now send off my pigeon and return to Mackaytown".
There were, of course, many more messages, for which, the Reporter, Joshua Jackson, became famous.
The 1900 Cyclopaedia of New Zealand tells us:
"Joshua Jackson arrived at Thames from England in 1869 and after a little practical experience in mining, became a Special Correspondent, reporting on the fields in this area. He was interested in the original "Woodstock" and floated the "Crown". His excellent descriptions of Karangahake and Waitekauri have had the value of standard works for the colony".
No doubt his messages were written on less elegant paper than the famous "Flimsys" from Great Barrier 20 years later, but they were wonderfully efficient.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Jan 31, 2024 21:51:38 GMT
I had not posted the Mt Cook, in this thread, as I presumed it was for only Great Barrier Island. The Mount Egmont Pigeon Post
R.D. Samuel "The Captain Coqk" Number 511, July 1992 Volume 20 Number 6 Page 61
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