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Post by spike47 on Jan 6, 2024 14:53:35 GMT
Hi I am not sure if I can post this on here, but if not it will be removed. The short story, I sort of work doing Royal Mail Surveys through "Spectos Mail Agents", (it was Kantar) who are doing the surveys on behalf of Royal Mail. I get paid in earning points, then the points are used to get vouchers that you can spend in various shops, and also every month we get free stamp booklets of Large and First class stamps, also every months you get a "Royal Mail stamp collection", like The FA cup, etc, and also each Christmas time, we also get a " Christmas Stamp Collection, i.e. Christmas 2021, 2022, etc. I just sell a few booklets at a time on Gumtree, usually to the same person who bulk buys, some of the Stamp Collections I just use for normal postage such has letters or parcels at the Post Office and get the credit for stamps. So, getting to the problem, I sent a letter to my nephew in Canada, using a 1st class stamp, and large class stamp from the 2021 Christmas collection. Now the stamps in Royal Mail Stamp Collections do not have the "Royal Mail " wording all over the stamps and they don't have the bottom left and right security indentations also, which most of you will know. About 3 weeks later I get the back, with a yellow label across it saying that it is a fraudulent stamp, (attachment included). Have had several correspondences with Royal Mail and the Postal Review Body, all just really repeating what the first decision was, telling they have sophisticated machinery that checks all the stamps! Then I get this from the " Royal Mail Intelligence dept" Stampsintelligence@royalmail.com: So, it seems that they can tell just by a visual! I answered their question but got no reply. So, will attach the envelope in question. Just to say, I have used all the stamps on that Christmas 2021 collection, and the one in question was the last one to be used. Cheers, Spike   |
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vikingeck
Member 
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 6, 2024 15:05:58 GMT
Unfortunately I do not have examples to compare with that 2nd class large, but the perforations top, left and bottom are sawtooth, whilst those on the right look conventional perfs.
They may be perfectly correct, since self adhesives are diecut and don’t actually need perforation, I don’t know , but it does look odd.
Is that what they mean by “visual”
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Post by spike47 on Jan 6, 2024 15:09:13 GMT
Unfortunately I do not have examples to compare with that 2nd class large, but the perforations top, left and bottom are sawtooth, whilst those on the right look conventional perfs. They may be perfectly correct, since self adhesives are diecut and don’t actually need perforation, I don’t know , but it does look odd. Is that what they mean by “visual” Hi Thanks for your reply, have edited this, they are just saying it is a fake, they don't say what the visual was ! cheers Spike PS: Here is the full set from the web, if you can zoom in, can see that the other stamps perferations are all not the same around them, am trying to find a set on fleabay etc, might buy set to check against, then could re sell them !  |
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Post by daniel on Jan 6, 2024 17:14:16 GMT
Hi spike47 , Unfortunately, there are plenty of fakes around and being sold on eBay and elsewhere. Here is an example from eBay which has just sold:  The 2D Barcode should be unique for every single stamp and they are readable by Royal Mail. In this block of eight example, if you look closely, the complex pattern is exactly the same for each stamp, so, these are fakes. That is one way that you can check the stamps that you are given. Royal Mail has read your 2D Barcode and, presumably, it isn't as it should be. The stamp should also be phospher or otherwise coated. The fact that you obtained your stamps from an agency doing working for Royal Mail is disturbing. Doubtless, Royal Mail will investigate this. For what it's worth, you could probably sell your cover, legitimately, and make some money back  Thanks for sharing your experience. Daniel |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 6, 2024 20:23:54 GMT
Apart from the dodgy looking serrated “perfs”. The matrix code on your cover is entirely different in colour both to the one shown in your composite picture of the real stamps and the fakes shown by daniel, deep blue not turquoise. Whatever the source of your “stamp” , I’d say the Royal Mail has it right this time and your item is indeed a counterfeit . Tough! |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 8, 2024 16:32:15 GMT
Apart from the dodgy looking serrated “perfs”. The matrix code on your cover is entirely different in colour both to the one shown in your composite picture of the real stamps and the fakes shown by daniel , deep blue not turquoise. Whatever the source of your “stamp” , I’d say the Royal Mail has it right this time and your item is indeed a counterfeit . Tough! Hi Yes understand, but the guy from Royal Mail "Stamps Intelligence" just looked at my picture I sent him, he hasn't actually seen the stamp !, as for the perforations, they might look a bit tattered etc, but they are not a single stamp in the collection, they are all conected via the perforations, so when you part one, the part of the perforations can be left on the stamp or on the next stamp you took it form !. I am 100% sure it is a genuine stamp, if it where, then the whole collection would be including brochure and inserts that came with it !. Cheers Spike |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 8, 2024 16:35:19 GMT
Hi spike47 , Unfortunately, there are plenty of fakes around and being sold on eBay and elsewhere. Here is an example from eBay which has just sold: The 2D Barcode should be unique for every single stamp and they are readable by Royal Mail. In this block of eight example, if you look closely, the complex pattern is exactly the same for each stamp, so, these are fakes. That is one way that you can check the stamps that you are given. Royal Mail has read your 2D Barcode and, presumably, it isn't as it should be. The stamp should also be phospher or otherwise coated. The fact that you obtained your stamps from an agency doing working for Royal Mail is disturbing. Doubtless, Royal Mail will investigate this. For what it's worth, you could probably sell your cover, legitimately, and make some money back Thanks for sharing your experience. Daniel Hi Yes understand, but the guy from Royal Mail "Stamps Intelligence" just looked at my picture I sent him, he hasn't actually seen the stamp !, as for the perforations, they might look a bit tattered etc, but they are not a single stamp in the collection, they are all conected via the perforations, so when you part one, the part of the perforations can be left on the stamp or on the next stamp you took it form !. I am 100% sure it is a genuine stamp, if it where, then the whole collection would be including brochure and inserts that came with it !. Cheers Spike |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 8, 2024 17:02:26 GMT
![]() These are the stamps from the same collection that I have all ready used . Spike  |
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Post by daniel on Jan 8, 2024 19:19:59 GMT
Hi Spike, Here is a known forgery of this stamp along with a 1st class forgery, and sold as such, on eBay.  Now, just look at the 2D barcode, it is exactly the same as yours. This is not possible with genuine stamps. Forgers don't bother with such details, it would be too difficult to give every forged stamp a different barcode. Also, the colour of the barcode should be blue not purple. So, we can say with 100% certainty that your stamp is fake. As I said, I'm sure you can recover the cost of the stamp by selling your cover. Daniel |
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 6,616
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Jan 8, 2024 20:31:52 GMT
I expect a side benefit of the bar code on the side of stamps for the stamp issuing authorities that they did not advertise too loudly, but is obvious from the cases shown here, is that they can now automate the detection of counterfeits. Simply have the cancelling/scanning machine check the barcodes and flag all barcodes that are invalid/already used/known counterfeits and remove those covers from the mail stream. So I suspect that mail returns for use of counterfeits will increase greatly.
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madbaker
Member
Posts: 693 
What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
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Post by madbaker on Jan 8, 2024 23:31:12 GMT
This is a fascinating thread, seeing the counterfeit stamps in action. I suppose Royal Mail is happy their tracking machines are working properly, but it's going to take a while for consumers to change habits and only buy postage from official sources. I assume it's a more than philatelists who purchase discount postage but still, it must be a fairly small number of people who will have to adjust their habits before it is only the fraudsters using these bogus issues.
For what it's worth, I wish the postal services could use different security features on their stamps. Like, maybe, steel engraving?  PS - I know it's a fruitless endeavour, akin to tilting at windmills, but we only have 2024 to eliminate this heinous trend of calling these QR codes "bar codes." We finally find a useful, mass media purpose for these 2D 'quick response' codes and the name is lost to the mists of time, only to be cherished by pendants and obsessive types. Who would've thought it would be philatelists who consigned the term to the dustbin? If this keeps up, I shall henceforth begin calling all unused stamps 'new', even if they were printed in 1923. PPS - Sigh. Even the mighty Wikipedia defines QR codes as " a type of two-dimensional matrix barcode, invented in 1994, by Japanese company Denso Wave for labelling automobile parts." Bring on those new 1897 Jubilees...  |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 9, 2024 15:10:20 GMT
Hi Spike, Here is a known forgery of this stamp along with a 1st class forgery, and sold as such, on eBay. Now, just look at the 2D barcode, it is exactly the same as yours. This is not possible with genuine stamps. Forgers don't bother with such details, it would be too difficult to give every forged stamp a different barcode. Also, the colour of the barcode should be blue not purple. So, we can say with 100% certainty that your stamp is fake. As I said, I'm sure you can recover the cost of the stamp by selling your cover. Daniel Hi But that would mean the whole collection will be fake along with the printed matter it comes with. It just seems strange that a company working for Royal Mail would source fake Royal Mail Stamp collections, I could understand a bit, if these where individual stamps, but they are part of a collection, where all the stamps of that collection are joined together by there perforations !. Will have to do a bit more research on the bar code it has !. |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 9, 2024 15:47:43 GMT
Here
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Post by daniel on Jan 9, 2024 16:14:37 GMT
Here is a collection from the Royal Mail web site, all the stamps look to me. to have the same bar code on them !. cheers ![]() Hi Spike, I had noticed that Royal Mail used the same 2D barcodes on their website too. This must be deliberate on the part of Royal Mail so as to prevent forgers from copying their images. I am sure that these are invalid 2D barcodes and would show up as such if a counterfeiter used them to make fakes. Here are some multiples that I have received recently and you will see that the 2D barcodes are all different. That is the point of the 2D barcodes.  Daniel |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 9, 2024 17:08:46 GMT
Here is a collection from the Royal Mail web site, all the stamps look to me. to have the same bar code on them !. cheers ![]() Hi Spike, I had noticed that Royal Mail used the same 2D barcodes on their website too. This must be deliberate on the part of Royal Mail so as to prevent forgers from copying their images. I am sure that these are invalid 2D barcodes and would show up as such if a counterfeiter used them to make fakes. Here are some multiples that I have received recently and you will see that the 2D barcodes are all different. That is the point of the 2D barcodes. Daniel Hi there Yeh I guess you are correct, I am just pee'd of the the Mail agents have supplies if fake stamp collections, I have a FA cup collection from them so will check that out. Thanks for all your replies . Cheers Spike |
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Post by michael on Jan 9, 2024 17:34:49 GMT
You can read the barcode using the QR reader on your phone.
These are the codes for two 2nd class stamps I have on a full sheet:
JGB S112510170313314098000066031221012919AB0545F2D6DE01
JGB S11251017031331409760006603122101BC687567190D73B301
They would only need a photo of your stamp to prove it's a forgery as they would just scan it.
Your stamp is:
JGB S111510170310607074600085260421029371A67C7714518901
If you use your phone on all the other stamps in the sheet they will all have this number.
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Linda
Member
Ex-mathematician turned visual artist and touring cyclist to bike across Canada, Europe, Japan etc.
Posts: 1,262 
What I collect: Mostly Canadian and European stamps about art / science / landscape
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Post by Linda on Jan 9, 2024 18:26:58 GMT
I must admit that I found the presence of the barcode pretty ugly on a stamp, but it's so convenient for spotting forgeries!
By the way, does anyone know if modern Canadian and Japanese stamps are being forged at an alarming scale (like that of USA)?
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Post by spike47 on Jan 11, 2024 8:04:48 GMT
Apart from the dodgy looking serrated “perfs”. The matrix code on your cover is entirely different in colour both to the one shown in your composite picture of the real stamps and the fakes shown by daniel , deep blue not turquoise. Whatever the source of your “stamp” , I’d say the Royal Mail has it right this time and your item is indeed a counterfeit . Tough! Hi Yes understand, but the guy from Royal Mail "Stamps Intelligence" just looked at my picture I sent him, he hasn't actually seen the stamp !, as for the perforations, they might look a bit tattered etc, but they are not a single stamp in the collection, they are all conected via the perforations, so when you part one, the part of the perforations can be left on the stamp or on the next stamp you took it form !. I am 100% sure it is a genuine stamp, if it where, then the whole collection would be including brochure and inserts that came with it !. Cheers Spike Hi The colour is really down to the camera used to take the pic !. Cheers |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 11, 2024 8:08:20 GMT
I must admit that I found the presence of the barcode pretty ugly on a stamp, but it's so convenient for spotting forgeries! By the way, does anyone know if modern Canadian and Japanese stamps are being forged at an alarming scale (like that of USA)? Hi Will try to scan the other stamps, but pic of them on another parcel I used them for as attached on here is a bit to far away to scan but will try . |
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Post by spike47 on Jan 11, 2024 8:14:18 GMT
Hi Spike, Here is a known forgery of this stamp along with a 1st class forgery, and sold as such, on eBay. Now, just look at the 2D barcode, it is exactly the same as yours. This is not possible with genuine stamps. Forgers don't bother with such details, it would be too difficult to give every forged stamp a different barcode. Also, the colour of the barcode should be blue not purple. So, we can say with 100% certainty that your stamp is fake. As I said, I'm sure you can recover the cost of the stamp by selling your cover. Daniel Hi But that would mean the whole collection will be fake along with the printed matter it comes with. It just seems strange that a company working for Royal Mail would source fake Royal Mail Stamp collections, I could understand a bit, if these where individual stamps, but they are part of a collection, where all the stamps of that collection are joined together by there perforations !. Will have to do a bit more research on the bar code it has !. But the company who works for Royal Mail is supposed to be getting them from them direct from Royal Mail and then sending them to me !. |
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Post by gstamps on Jan 11, 2024 12:24:57 GMT
Hi all,
This discussion about forged stamps is interesting.
I don't have these stamps in my collection and those who have them might be able to answer a few questions.
Is the initial stamp a photogravure stamp?
I suspect that this 2D code does not exist on the print plate - it would not be economical if it is different for each stamp on the sheet and I suspect that there are other 2D codes on the following sheets.
Can you tell me by which printing method these 2D codes are made? - is it possible to be a computer printer type print?
Are the 2 prints made simultaneously? - quite complicated to have so many digital printing points and I don't know if the speed is high enough for a photogravure printing on the plate.
I look forward to your answers.
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Linda
Member
Ex-mathematician turned visual artist and touring cyclist to bike across Canada, Europe, Japan etc.
Posts: 1,262
What I collect: Mostly Canadian and European stamps about art / science / landscape
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Post by Linda on Jan 11, 2024 12:45:24 GMT
gstamps -- Although I don't have answer to your specific question, but to my knowledge, generating random and distinct items using computerised algorithm is not a difficult thing. Even though to our limited cognition it may look infinitely complicated to generate a wealth of distinct items, it's actually not mathematically difficult to achieve.
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Post by gstamps on Jan 11, 2024 12:55:50 GMT
@linda
It is obvious that the 2D code model is digitally generated in connection with a digital printing device as well (laser, ink jet, thermal, etc.)
At a high enough magnification, you can't recognize and compare an original 2D code compared to the forged one?
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Post by michael on Jan 11, 2024 13:57:23 GMT
spike47 As daniel has proved, the stamp is 100% fake, equally it has the same code as the fake ones being sold on Ebay when using a QR reader. Every barcoded stamp has a unique code. If you definitely received it from Spectos Mail Agents, then you must contact them and tell them what has happened.
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Post by gstamps on Jan 12, 2024 13:45:10 GMT
I'm sorry that I don't have these stamps in my collection. To recognize a forged stamp from a genuine one, it is not enough to check the 2D code (if you have only one stamp) I found a site that shows the differences found in perforations and printing methods (unfortunately only as a result): blog.norphil.co.uk/2022/09/machin-datamatrix-forgeries-widely.html |
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Post by michael on Apr 11, 2024 8:36:22 GMT
There's an article about counterfeit UK stamps on the main page of the BBC website this morning:
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