Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 6, 2024 5:30:35 GMT
At the request of a good friend of mine, who is not a stamp collector, I am posting images below of some stamps in his possession. He bought two booklets of US, Scott #2284-2285 back in 1988, one of which he eventually noticed seems to be either double printed or color shifted. That is the booklet pane shown on the left. On the right is a booklet with only a single stamp remaining, that seems to be printed correctly. I checked in the 2024 Scott WW Catalogue, and there is no mention of any printing errors for these booklets, but perhaps a US Specialized Catalogue might have better information. Is a doubled or blurred or shifted printing like this even considered an error, or just a freak or oddity? My friend would like to know if this item has any market value to collectors, so I offered to post on TSF and collect opinions. Please let me know what you think.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 6, 2024 6:02:43 GMT
At the request of a good friend of mine, who is not a stamp collector, I am posting images below of some stamps in his possession. He bought two booklets of US, Scott #2284-2285 back in 1988, one of which he eventually noticed seems to be double printed. That is the booklet pane shown on the left. On the right is a booklet with only a single stamp remaining, that seems to be printed correctly. I checked in the 2024 Scott WW Catalogue, and there is no mention of any printing errors for these booklets, but perhaps a US Specialized Catalogue might have better information. Is a doubled or blurred printing like this even considered an error, or just a freak or oddity? My friend would like to know if this item has any market value to collectors, so I offered to post on TSF and collect opinions. Please let me know what you think. In my experience. Not "double printing" Oft used terminology, "mis registration" "miss registration" "color / colour shift" Considered EFO Errors, freaks or Omissions value: Depending on the severity of the shifts, often matched up with "autotron bars" (Australia) or "traffic lights" to detect the proper operation of each colour cylinder Values: "In the eye of the beholder" Askphil: Color misregistration : misalignment of multi colour printing plates, resulting in a color appearing out of position. Color Registration: marks of different sizes and shapes used as an aid in properly registering the different colors in the printing process. Color Separation: the process of preparing a separate drawing, engraving, or negative for each color required in the printing of a stamp. Color Shade: commonly used to denote a variation of the same color. Color Shift: variety where one or more colors of a multicolored issue are misaligned. Color Smear: any unintended color that appears on a stamp due to a printing error, aka a freak.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 6, 2024 6:42:30 GMT
Fair enough, rod222I have renamed the thread along the lines you have indicated. I wasn't sure if double printing was correct, so thanks for clarifying. I will say, though, that when I look at the blurry stamps in the booklet on the left, it doesn't actually appear that one color is shifted or mis-registered, as shown in your examples. In fact, it looks like I can see a sort of shadowing on both sides of the birds, and in different colors. If it were truly a shift or mis-registration of one color, then it should only be evident on one side, and it should only be one color. Does that make any sense? This sort of thing is not at all my area, so please forgive any incorrect terminology as I try to get it right.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 6, 2024 7:37:46 GMT
Fair enough, rod222 I have renamed the thread along the lines you have indicated. I wasn't sure if double printing was correct, so thanks for clarifying. I will say, though, that when I look at the blurry stamps in the booklet on the left, it doesn't actually appear that one color is shifted or mis-registered, as shown in your examples. In fact, it looks like I can see a sort of shadowing on both sides of the birds, and in different colors. If it were truly a shift or mis-registration of one color, then it should only be evident on one side, and it should only be one color. Does that make any sense? This sort of thing is not at all my area, so please forgive any incorrect terminology as I try to get it right. Cheers BG, The image is not clear enough, for me. I have answered to the best of my ability. A specialist, may be aware of the type of printer used, that would go towards a definitive answer. If the stamps were on a continuous roll lithography, then a double print would be impossible. Maybe we have a specialist here on TSF with info on the 1988 booklets?
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 6, 2024 7:40:53 GMT
The easy way to see if it is a misregistration or true double-print is to look at the plate number in the selvedge (haven't I said it before? the answer is in the selvedge!). If color misregistration, you can tell which color is misregistered by seeing which of the plate digits is shifted significantly (all digits should be evenly space and on same base line). Each digit represents a different plate/color. If double-print, you will see doubling of one or more digits. Unfortunately, the pic is too blurry for me to tell. They will either need to look themselves, or provide a scan or well-focused pic of the plate number in the selvedge. It is most likely a color misregistration, which are common for that booklet. k (who always first looks at the selvedge which nobody respects )
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 6, 2024 8:01:08 GMT
k (who always first looks at the selvedge which nobody respects ) Hey ! that's a bit severe ....nobody? there's at least you and me Jokes aside, I was of the opinion booklets would offer little in the selvedge.
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salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 6, 2024 9:27:31 GMT
I was of the opinion booklets would offer little in the selvedge. I do not know whether this is the case for US booklets. But for UK booklets they can make a big difference. Here is a Walsall booklet from the UK with cylinder number. Some of these explode in price with the right cylinder numbers and cutting marks.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 6, 2024 15:27:18 GMT
Thanks for the further responses, khj and rod222. Thanks also to salmantino for your post. I agree that the image is not well focused in any case, so I have asked my friend if he can supply something better, ideally a scan with decent resolution. If I get anything more, I will post it. That may be more of an academic exercise at this point, as it sounds like from the comments that an item like this isn't particularly valuable, especially if this sort of occurrence was relatively common for this issue, according to khj. Of course, the answer lies in the selvedge, which I should have known!
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 6, 2024 21:06:16 GMT
It depends on the degree of the misregistration and if any prominent features are changed considerably. There's fine line between misregistrations the push the stamp into junk status, and those the push the stamp to minor/major premiums. The misregistration usually needs to be at least 1-2mm before it crosses into "desirable printing freak" category, but there are exceptions. For example, if the misregistration causes the owl to appear to have 4 eyes, then someone might be willing to pay a minor premium. But we're talking about changing a 50¢ catalog stamp to one worth a few bucks. Marketing hype tends to be a good gimmick to attract attention/value, e.g., "two-tailed cat", "fast plane"... If the shift causes something like the denomination or design feature being shifted out of the stamp on the next stamp, then you might start getting into the $10 range and above. There are a handful of major color misregistrations for which the wholesale price is above the cost of the cheapest imperf error.
The owl & grosbeak was printed with the Andreotti Gravure Press. It was a workhorse press, printing in much larger quantities than today's stamp issues. It's not difficult to find examples of stamps with at least one color misregistered.
The misregistration is not limited to Andreotti press, but high-volume Giori and Huck press printings as well. The Boston Tea Party setenant block of 4 is at typical example of a Giori printing where misregistrations are easy to spot. Look for things like the yellow light burning outside the lantern, as well as shifting people or parts of the boat.
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 6, 2024 21:13:05 GMT
So in general, very small color shifts are usually considered flawed stamps. I used to use a lot of older postage for large mailings. Here is an example of a larger shift that I found, significant enough to give the stamp a minor premium of maybe a few dollars. Had the black been shifted down the same distance instead of up, out onto the stamp below, it would have been worth more. right stamp: Scott US #1206(14Nov1962), 4¢ higher education left stamp: black shifted up 2018 Scott catalog mint for normal stamp = 25¢ (Scott minimum catalog value)
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 6, 2024 21:19:05 GMT
I do not know whether this is the case for US booklets. But for UK booklets they can make a big difference. Nice example. It is also true for US booklets as well, but most people don't know about it because Scott only give values by plate number, not by booklet position. For the latter, you have to go to the Furman catalog, which unfortunately is no longer produced. In most cases, it's not the plate number we are looking for, but certain specific registration marks/combinations. I used to enjoy thumbing through large batches of booklets looking for the difficult to find plate numbers or registration marks -- some of which can be worth $50+ or even $100+.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 7, 2024 4:35:24 GMT
Thanks again to rod222 and khj for your previous responses. I asked my friend for a better image, and below is what I received. I cropped off the bottom portion, as I don't think it adds anything more to the discussion. Is this clear enough to discern anything from the characters in the selvedge? I do understand khj's comment that it can only be a double printing if the letters and numbers (25 USA) are doubled too, and they aren't, so OK, that is not the answer. In that case, if it is indeed a color shift, can you tell which color is shifted? Personally, I am now thinking it must be black, because if you look at the 25 USA on the shifted example, it is further away from the left edge of the blue field compared to the lone example on the right-hand booklet. Does that fit what we are looking at? Thanks for any comments!
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 7, 2024 5:14:28 GMT
Thanks for getting the better pics. I do understand khj's comment that it can only be a double printing if the letters and numbers (25 USA) are doubled too, and they aren't, so OK, that is not the answer. Actually, I meant the digits of the plate number in the selvedge (tab). One or more of the digits must be doubled if there was a double printing of any one or more colors. Below, I have enlarged the plate numbers on the 2 tabs (2111 from the booklet at left with the noticeable misregistration, and 4642 from the booklet at right with minimal misregistration). I have copy/pasted the 4642 directly to the left and below the 2111, for comparison of the degree of misregistration. This will allow you to compare relative vertical/horizontal misregistration of each color. Note, the 4,6,4,2 represent the single-digit plate number for each for the following colors: magenta, cyan, yellow, black. First, you will notice there is no doubling of any of the digits. Therefore, there is no double printing. But you do notice some colors are misregistered. From the pic of plate numbers, you can see that in 4642 (better registered stamp) the first 4 and last 2 are slightly higher than the middle 64. This particular combination of colors shifted does not affect a major design element, so you don't notice it on the grosbeak stamp. It probably would have been very slightly noticeable on the owl stamp had it still been there. The 2111, however, the rightmost "1" (black) is shifted significantly to the right and slightly down. While the second digit, "1" (blue), is shifted slightly to the left. So you can see in both birds in the left booklet, a noticeable shift in the black along the right-side outlines of the birds. There's actually a rightward shift and slight downward shift in the black "25 USA". You don't notice it because there is no design element intermingled with it to serve as reference for the shift. But as Beryllium Guy noted, if you compare to the stamp at right, you can see that the "25 USA" is further to the right from the left edge of the stamp ==> there is a rightward shift in the "25 USA" in the left booklet.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 7, 2024 5:24:43 GMT
Thanks, khj Ha ha, OK, I still misunderstood your meaning about the doubled numbers, but at least the better image has helped, and I do understand your explanation about looking to the selvedge for clues to seeing which colors are shifted and in what ways. This has been a good learning opportunity for me! Anyway, thanks so much for responding on this. I guess my friend has an interesting curio for a specialist, but nothing of particular value. That's what I wanted to know.
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 7, 2024 5:31:54 GMT
I would say the booklet at left is a good conversation piece, minor premium. The owl looks like it's wearing glasses!
By the way, for those who like to collect booklet cover varieties, this booklet comes in 2 different flavors. Both booklets shown in the OP are the "one leaf" variety. In the right topmost flower, there is a single leaf growing toward the right. The other variety has 2 leaves growing toward the right! The "two leaf" variety is actually shown in the Scott US Specialized catalog, although not priced. My booklet/cover collection is archived and I never took scans of the booklet covers -- so sorry, can't post them.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 7, 2024 6:49:09 GMT
Eloquent explanation there, Kim. I still had a query moment, possibly illustrating how important good scans are. The right hand booklet pane by the OP, one cannot see any "grey veins in the flower petals, they look just pure white which is not the case, they should have grey tinges, perhaps the scan was not strong enough.
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de61
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Post by de61 on Feb 27, 2024 15:15:50 GMT
I would like to weigh-in on this. It appears to be a double printing of the portion of the plate typically termed the "engraved" portion, although I believe the entire issue - background, lettering, and detailed design - were all printed using a photogravure process. It is not unusual for these 3 elements to be printed in separate passes on a printing press. This would explain why the background and lettering are not doubled. The key is to look at the stems and leaves to the left of the Grosbeak bird. Both stems would not be printed if it was a simple misregistration of colors. khj is correct in that the digits in the selvedge tab would be doubled for a doubled printing. The problem here is the selvedge shown is for the first pane in the booklet, not the error pane. The first pane was probably not from the same sheet as the error pane, based on the way booklets are assembled. The only way to tell for sure would be to carefully remove the selvedge from the first pane to view the digits on the second tab.
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 27, 2024 18:44:41 GMT
de61 is correct, the black text is also photogravure, not engraved. Also a good point, the bottom panes would have come from a different "press sheet" (roll section) when the Goebel machine was used to make the booklets. In fact, some booklets were created where the underlying panes were from a completely different roll with different plate numbers! (see fishing flies booklets) For doubling of one or more colors, technically, it might be possible that there happened to be a break in the Andreotti print run between those 2 press sheet sections, someone back-fed the roll exactly one or more plate widths before the photogravure printing was done, then restarted the press. But that is far from being a trivial thing to do. There is a reason why you don't see many double printings from the Andreotti Press (web-fed press, not sheet fed), even though there are lots of color misregistrations. Off-hand, I don't recall any double printings from the Andreotti Press. The stems are doubled because they are not a single color, but a combination of colors. There is no "brown" color plate. Likewise, there is no "green" color plate for the leaves. To me, the doubled stem is a slightly different shade, and both of them are slightly different color from the stem of the "normal" stamp. My opinion is I am seeing the larger right shift of the "black" outline/shading of the stems/leaves/veins, combined with a smaller misregistration of 2 of the other colors. If any color of the stamp was double printed, I would first look at the edges of the stamp rather than just the design elements. Any color double printed shows up more clearly near the stamp border where it can be isolated on a white paper background, and then you can check to see if there is a normal design element and a separate doubling of that color. All I see is a shift of color, not a doubling of any particular color or group of colors. But then again, I'm looking at a pic, not the actual stamp in hand. I would not suggest trying to remove the top selvedge/tab to uncover the underlying. You might end up tearing off the underlying number, and if you use fluid, you might end up damaging the gum. That should be left for an expertizer, if you believe you have a double printing. I don't see any evidence of double printing, only evidence of color misregistration. But that's just my non-expert opinion. I am open to any comments to show the booklet was double print.
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de61
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Post by de61 on Feb 27, 2024 21:16:01 GMT
The more I looked at the image with it zoomed to high magnification, the more I now agree with khj. It is a misregistration shift of the black color. What initially got me was how the Grosbeak bird could have a grayish-black shadow along its back and also a black shadow along its breast without it being a double printing. Under magnification, though, I now realize the grayish-black shadow along its back is from a combination of the other inks used for the plate and the one along its breast is from the misregistered black color. Good analysis khj!
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 27, 2024 21:40:17 GMT
I always welcome differing opinions. I want to learn, too! And others will notice things that I miss -- like forgetting about the 2 tabs!
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 27, 2024 22:38:44 GMT
Thanks for continuing the discussion, de61 and khj. As it happens, I now have these stamps in my possession. My friend decided to give them to me. Is there anything you would like me to do, now that I have them? If so, please let me know, and I will do my best to comply. Thanks!
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 27, 2024 22:52:27 GMT
Congrats, it's a nice conversation piece. Worth more than face value at retail, but only a couple of bucks more. I think there is a US EFO thread, maybe you can post a pic there? If you do, also note the booklet cover is the one-leaf variety -- for those who are always wondering what's on the other side.
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