hkwill
**Member**
Posts: 34
What I collect: Hong Kong (upto 1997), China Treaty Ports, arrival cancels on HK and shipmarkings on HK, plus early incoming mail to HK -
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Post by hkwill on Feb 24, 2024 18:39:20 GMT
Hi Can anyone identify the right hand cancel - Ho.... around the top of the cancel and Stati.... on the bottom - any ideas of which country - I am assuming it is an arrival cancellation rather than a security mark or Forwarding mark ( and I have extensively checked rodsell.com/hksmsic/hksmsic.html ) - as the cancel does seem to sit over the Hong Kong cancel any ideas?
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2024 19:27:58 GMT
My initial thought was the post office at Horseshoe Bend Station in Australia. But I don't have a reference cancel for it to compare. Not to mention the incredible odds of a letter being mailed from Hong Kong to there. Enough guesswork from me... time to let someone who knows better chime in...
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 24, 2024 19:40:26 GMT
Hi Can anyone identify the right hand cancel - Ho.... around the top of the cancel and Stati.... on the bottom - any ideas of which country - I am assuming it is an arrival cancellation rather than a security mark or Forwarding mark ( and I have extensively checked rodsell.com/hksmsic/hksmsic.html ) - as the cancel does seem to sit over the Hong Kong cancel any ideas? Probably would have solved this in 30 seconds, Alas! Allan Oliver's "Philatelic database" of GB Postmarks, disappeared without notice. A tragedy. I used it almost daily. So what is it? Probably a British postal cancel on cover to Hong Kong Single ring hammer, with the location town HO?? etc at top and at the bottom of ring STATION OFFICE, STATION OFFICE BO, STATION-OFFICE, ETC Not in my records, (nor in my Hong Kong Pmks records) I have Broadstairs station office Chester station office Hastings Station Office Tunbridge Station Office Figure out the town HO?? and you may snag the CDS Depending on how keen you are, you can ask a question here: link
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2024 19:45:35 GMT
Yeah, I couldn't find it in the list of HK post office either, nor Treaty Ports.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 24, 2024 19:55:29 GMT
Yours looks like a Type 6b Hammer link
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salmantino
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What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 24, 2024 20:52:16 GMT
I have my doubts about a British railway station. An arrival mark would, likely, have been applied upon arrival in the UK, or at the post office in the town where the recipient lived. Other than Dover, there was no train station where mail could have arrived in the UK. And a station as local post office also seems improbable. A naval station or one like khj suggests would make more sense.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 24, 2024 21:39:59 GMT
There is also the possibility that a letter arriving in the UK might have had to be re- addressed and forwarded.
In such a situation there could be a UK postmark applied if reposted.
There are railway stations at Horsham London and Horsforth Leeds……….. maybe ?🤔
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 24, 2024 21:53:03 GMT
With most people sticking a stamp top right on their mail, there would be no reason to apply the cancel on the righthand side of the Hong Kong stamp if reposted and an added British stamp was added. It requires stacking of assumptions to explain it this way. Although not impossible, it is highly improbable.
Was 10 cent the letter rate for mail within the Empire?
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 24, 2024 22:05:13 GMT
There is also the possibility that a letter arriving in the UK might have had to be re- addressed and forwarded. In such a situation there could be a UK postmark applied if reposted. There are railway stations at Horsham London and Horsforth Leeds……….. maybe ?🤔 vikingeckWell done ! we have a Horsham Station Office Teasingly missing the CDS portion
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2024 22:12:43 GMT
I had initially ruled out Horsham because the letter centering seemed a bit off, but maybe I discounted it too quickly. Also, I only had a Horsham cancel with different thicker font to compare. Seems odd the duplex cancel would be so far to the right -- this stamp must have been far from the edge (maybe another stamp on the right?).
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Feb 24, 2024 22:22:17 GMT
With most people sticking a stamp top right on their mail, there would be no reason to apply the cancel on the righthand side of the Hong Kong stamp if reposted and an added British stamp was added. It requires stacking of assumptions to explain it this way. Although not impossible, it is highly improbable. Was 10 cent the letter rate for mail within the Empire? It is possible since it is a red stamp (preferred UPU colour) that 10c was Empire letter rate , but there is no definite reason why that 10c was the only stamp on the item of mail. From the cancels It seems there must have been more space to the right of it . If it was double weight or if it was registered mail there would have been additional stamps. would registered mail not pick up a GB date stamp or two in transit? London being the most likely.
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 24, 2024 23:22:57 GMT
I had initially ruled out Horsham because the letter centering seemed a bit off, but maybe I discounted it too quickly. Also, I only had a Horsham cancel with different thicker font to compare. Seems odd the duplex cancel would be so far to the right -- this stamp must have been far from the edge (maybe another stamp on the right?). I like your thinking here, Kim. Pertinent observation, I had not contemplated. Like any Philatelic query, we have to prove what it is not. The HO was not in 190 RPO images (station and station office) I have, I remain firmly in the belief it is a Brit Hammer, but evidence is becoming harder to find. I am having trouble imagining any other country with this type single ring CDS About to update the rpo thread.
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Feb 24, 2024 23:26:50 GMT
This is what a Horsham / Station.Office postmark looks like. I can't give any explanation but it seems to match perfectly. .
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rod222
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Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 24, 2024 23:59:26 GMT
This is what a Horsham / StationOffice postmark looks like. I can't give any explanation but it seems to match perfectly. Try and wipe the smile from my face Your'e a legend Daniel. I am convinced, others may have their opinions, and that's OK. Thanks to Vikingeck ! (Indeed, only recently learnt these are not RPO's, however, for sake of text string ID for "stations" etc, I'll include in the Database)
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rod222
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Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 25, 2024 0:31:35 GMT
Further to this query, perhaps hkwill Kim, others, can explain why I cannot find a catalogue to address the early Hong Kong CDS's ? Like the underlying HK Pmk of hkwill, I only have one early single ring, and not been able to ID it, or find it listed anywhere. I had another that stumped me for 10 years or so, until a colleague assisted
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Post by PostmasterGS on Feb 25, 2024 0:41:38 GMT
WRT the Horsham cancel, it appears to line up perfectly.
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rod222
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Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 25, 2024 1:04:33 GMT
WRT the Horsham cancel, it appears to line up perfectly. Let it be known, I am very jealous of the people with skills to do this ! Super!
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 25, 2024 3:09:59 GMT
Excellent, agreed it is certainly Horsham Station Office CDS! Well done, all!
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 25, 2024 4:35:31 GMT
I cannot find a catalogue to address the early Hong Kong CDS's ? I haven't seen this book, but maybe: Cancellations of Hong Kong, The first 100 years 1841-1941 by Hans Schoenfeld
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rod222
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Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 25, 2024 4:47:47 GMT
I cannot find a catalogue to address the early Hong Kong CDS's ? I haven't seen this book, but maybe: Cancellations of Hong Kong, The first 100 years 1841-1941 by Hans Schoenfeld Thank you very much, Kim. I'll have a look for it, my only reference currently... Abe Books $71 + ship
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khj
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Post by khj on Feb 25, 2024 4:56:49 GMT
$71 The book just went down a few hundred notches on my list of philatelic books to get!!!
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khj
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Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Feb 25, 2024 5:05:17 GMT
The cheapest I've seen so far for the book without an "out of stock" message is £25. But that's still above my cheapskate price. Somebody from HK study circle can probably give us a better idea of what's inside the cover.
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rod222
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Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Feb 25, 2024 5:44:05 GMT
I'll probably miss it as well, but keep an eye out on ebay.
Klaseboer gives a comprehensive cohort of Hongkong Postmark Images, incl. Treaty Ports (Surprisingly none of the "SHANGHAE" pmk images)
No HK info in Billigs.
Klaseboer only states "Date cancel with "HONG KONG" in single circle so I am assuming an expensive catalogue, therefore is unnecessary, along with the high prices of other pmk strikes, I'll never have.
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salmantino
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Posts: 266
What I collect: Specialised UK and overprints, Ireland, Netherlands, Spanish permanent stamps.
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Post by salmantino on Feb 25, 2024 8:07:58 GMT
It is possible since it is a red stamp (preferred UPU colour) that 10c was Empire letter rate , but there is no definite reason why that 10c was the only stamp on the item of mail. From the cancels It seems there must have been more space to the right of it . If it was double weight or if it was registered mail there would have been additional stamps. would registered mail not pick up a GB date stamp or two in transit? London being the most likely. This adds more 'ifs.' And yes, I agree about picking up date stamps. The duplex was a canceller. I also agree London may have been likely. But Horsham station, most likely, would be a receiving mark where Horsham would be much likelier than Horsham Station. That would vote for your suggestion it was reposted. It, however, does appear to be Horsham Station. It was the UPU rate by 1879. From 1898, a Britsih Empire rate was introduced. From the UK, the 1d red covered the Empire, but the 2½d blue the UPU rate. The 1d red covered the UPU postcard rate. Hong Kong did join the Empire rate scheme. Why use a UPU rate when there was a cheaper Empire rate? It could have been a postcard to England. But if 10 c was a UPU letter rate, it, likely was too high for the Empire rate.
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hkwill
**Member**
Posts: 34
What I collect: Hong Kong (upto 1997), China Treaty Ports, arrival cancels on HK and shipmarkings on HK, plus early incoming mail to HK -
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Post by hkwill on Feb 25, 2024 19:59:50 GMT
thank you everyone - much appreciated - Horsham does seem absolutely to match - I was looking at Horndean - close to Portsmouth ( letter home from a sailor? ) but it does not have a railway station I agree it might well be a redirect cancel.... another UK arrival cancel/ Miscellaneous redirect cancel on HK stamps for my extensive collection...
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daniel
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Post by daniel on Feb 26, 2024 14:06:33 GMT
For a full understanding as to what exactly a Station Office was, you need to check out the link that rod222 gave for the Railway Philatelic Group above. I'll repeat it here. Daniel
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hkwill
**Member**
Posts: 34
What I collect: Hong Kong (upto 1997), China Treaty Ports, arrival cancels on HK and shipmarkings on HK, plus early incoming mail to HK -
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Post by hkwill on Mar 2, 2024 21:20:02 GMT
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