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Post by andrewsanford on Apr 19, 2024 20:10:18 GMT
Hi, can anyone suggest the name of a specialist who provides opinions (with certificates) for 1945 Graz overprints? I found these while breaking up a dealer stock and would like to get an expert opinion on them:
Thanks!
Andrew
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Post by gstamps on Apr 20, 2024 5:26:54 GMT
andrewsanford, you can find a list of experts and their area of expertise on: www.bsv-favoriten.atEnter the "Prüfondrung des VÖB" and "Prüfer des VÖB" You will find contact details.
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Post by andrewsanford on Apr 20, 2024 5:48:15 GMT
Hi gstamps, thank you, that is helpful. Do you speak German? I am reading the Test Regulations page with Google Translate and this point jumped out at me:
Unless I am reading this incorrectly, this means the expert can backstamp the back of my stamp, correct?
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Post by andrewsanford on Apr 20, 2024 6:15:28 GMT
The more I look at my two stamps the less inclined I am to think that they might be authentic. I did an auction history search on Stamp Auction Network for #424a. Both of the certified stamps that have sold in the last ten years had space between the "s" and "t" of "Osterreich", and the umlauts were clear of the first "O". The breaks in the triple bars at the top of mine are also problematic.
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khj
Member 
Posts: 1,524 
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Post by khj on Apr 20, 2024 7:10:12 GMT
There are a lot of forgeries of this overprint. I don't have access to the forgery manual. I am having problems with the hard drives on both my laptops. So I currently unable to identify whether you have a known forgery or if genuine. Maybe someone can chime in...
There are 2 different types of overprint, so you can't just compare to a known genuine overprint unless it is the same type. The font spacing will be different. Assuming genuine, it looks like you have the "fat" overprint (known as Type I in Michel). So if comparing, you need to compare to a known genuine Type I overprint.
There are also numerous flaws in the overprint plate. So even if you spot some minor flaws/differences, it might still be genuine. You will need the Netto catalog to check for overprint flaws/varieties. But forgeries greatly outnumber genuine.
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Post by andrewsanford on Apr 20, 2024 7:56:38 GMT
I dug this up on another stamp forum. It's true that mine look like the Type I fat overprints. They are the correct length as well.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Apr 20, 2024 8:55:44 GMT
Further reading, but no Images  linkQuote: Unless I am reading this incorrectly, this means the expert can backstamp the back of my stamp, correct? Response ? Very popular, although happening by chance, are offprints. As the printing machine slowed down, the printed image was transferred as a mirror image to the reverse. |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 20, 2024 9:10:10 GMT
Unless I am reading this incorrectly, this means the expert can backstamp the back of my stamp, correct? One of the old ways was for expertizers to put their designated handstamp on the back of the stamp. It was considered acceptable practice back in the day. Of course, the problem is that the handstamp can be forged. The modern way is for the certificate to have an enlarged color picture of the stamp being expertized, and to have the certificate available online for verification (although not all expertizers offer the latter). The latter is important because, yeah, certificates can be forged as well. |
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Post by gstamps on Apr 20, 2024 10:40:44 GMT
andrewsanford, I don't know German but collecting German stamps I had to look for German websites. There are 2 more methods of proving the certification: "Befund" and "Attest", which involve higher costs. I found on www.briefmarken-forum.com the 2 types of overprint (certificates)  It is different from yours, but I am not familiar with these overprints.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Apr 20, 2024 11:46:45 GMT
Unless I am reading this incorrectly, this means the expert can backstamp the back of my stamp, correct? Yes. Not sure about the VÖB practice, but the German BPP practice is to do either a mark on the back, a cert, or a photo cert – which one is determined by the value of the item and/or the request of the submitter. From the VÖB's terms: |
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Post by andrewsanford on Apr 20, 2024 15:42:14 GMT
khj, as a dealer I see backstamped stamps pretty frequently and am certainly aware of the pitfalls associated with forged backstamps. In this case there is a $4,500 difference in catalogue value between MH and MNH, so I wouldn't want an expertizer putting a handstamp on the gum. gstamps , the image you provided would seem to confirm my hunch that these are forged. PostmasterGS , I hadn't seen that part of the fine print. A good reminder that reading comprehension is my friend! Thanks, everybody!
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Post by PostmasterGS on Apr 20, 2024 16:18:33 GMT
In this case there is a $4,500 difference in catalogue value between MH and MNH, so I wouldn't want an expertizer putting a handstamp on the gum. In markets where these are primarily sold (Germany, Austria, etc.), the expert's handstamp doesn't decrease the value. If anything, it increases it. It also doesn't make a MNH stamp MH. |
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Post by andrewsanford on Apr 20, 2024 16:29:13 GMT
I guess it's a question of choice, personally I don't see the need to apply a backstamp when a photo certificate is being issued, as the perfs serve as a unique identifier when coupled with the cert.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Apr 20, 2024 16:35:07 GMT
It's highly unlikely they would apply a backstamp if a photo cert was issued. It's usually one or the other.
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fkarl
**Member** 
Posts: 19
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Post by fkarl on Apr 24, 2024 18:24:51 GMT
The overprint was applied with a roller. I would be concerned with the break.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 24, 2024 19:19:11 GMT
The overprint was applied with a roller. That's the first time I've heard that these Graz overprints were applied with a roller, although I admit I've only seen a limited amount of literature/info that all refer to a plate used for overprinting. Can you supply a reference regarding the overprint being applied with a roller? Thank you in advance. EDIT: or maybe I misunderstood your post, and you were saying that the OP's stamps were prepared by a roller |
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Apr 24, 2024 23:47:41 GMT
Graz Overprints via flat pate printing, here linkDue to insufficient printing equipment and the necessary urgency of manufacture, the overprints have numerous varieties and plate faults. Since each printer had only one overprinting plate for all values of the same size, many errors occur in several or even all values. A very good survey of the plate faults is given in the Austria Netto Catalog (ANK). Very popular are the inverted overprints, which occur in almost all values; on them the word "Österreich" runs from the top downwards instead of from the bottom upwards. |
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Post by gstamps on Apr 25, 2024 5:34:51 GMT
rod222, in the article in your link I did not find a direct reference about flat print or rotated print (English is not my native language and I may be wrong) The vertical bars that continue outside the drawing - it would be interesting to see a block of stamps to see if they continue perfectly on the same line - would be an argument for rotated print.
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fkarl
**Member**
Posts: 19
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Post by fkarl on Apr 25, 2024 23:38:42 GMT
The overprint was applied with a roller. That's the first time I've heard that these Graz overprints were applied with a roller, although I admit I've only seen a limited amount of literature/info that all refer to a plate used for overprinting. Can you supply a reference regarding the overprint being applied with a roller? Thank you in advance. EDIT: or maybe I misunderstood your post, and you were saying that the OP's stamps were prepared by a roller Sorry I typed too fast and deleted part of my message. Doing too many things at once. Asking my German is OK, “The majority of counterfeit overprints were applied with a roller.” I have several over prints that are certified. When I can get them scanned I will post. |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,524
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Post by khj on Apr 26, 2024 0:07:35 GMT
Thank you very much for the clarification. Looking forward to your future post and learning from it. Thank you!
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