Hugh
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Post by Hugh on May 5, 2024 19:56:29 GMT
I acquired this cover recently and I've having some difficulty understanding its postal markings. I'd appreciate any advice. The letter was sent to B. L. Fould in Paris (he appears to be a banker) from Nathan Samuel Schutter. Except for the address, salutation and a note on the back flap, the letter was written in Hebrew. The note was added in Paris and indicated that the it was sent on June 8, 1798 and receved on June 15. It adds that a reply was sent the same day it was received. Given the date, and the use of the term 'Citoyen' instead of monsieur, I assume it is from a 'department conquis' - added as a result of the revolutionary wars / expansion of France. However, this is not my area of expertise. I can't find any reference to the postmark on the cover -- "Hte Allemagne". 'Haute Allemagne'? Since there is no department number above the town name, I assume that means that it is a provisiinal marking? There is a number on the back -- 26 inside a circle. I know that 'High German' or 'Upper Germany', used to describe certain dialects of German, was also used for the geographic area where those dialects were spoken ... including near the border with France. I don't know, however, to what specific department or post office this town cancel applies. Any help would be very welcome. Thanks.   |
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rednaxela
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Post by rednaxela on May 5, 2024 22:32:44 GMT
I know that 'High German' or 'Upper Germany', used to describe certain dialects of German, was also used for the geographic area where those dialects were spoken ... including near the border with France. I don't know, however, to what specific department or post office this town cancel applies. Any help would be very welcome. Thanks. "Haute-Allemagne" is a part of the French City of Fleury-sur-Orne in the Calvados department in the Normandy region in France.
Until 1916 Fleury-sur-Orne was known as Allemagne (Calvados) after the Alamanni tribe which once guarded the ford across the Orne. During the First World War this name, meaning in French Germany, became inconvenient and embarrassing for the inhabitants (unlike those of Allemagne-en-Provence in Southern France). The town council therefore decided on 23 August 1916, to change the name and to call it Fleury-sur-Orne in memory of the commune of Fleury-devant-Douaumont, a commune of the Meuse (in 1914: 422 inhabitants, school, church, town hall, 13 tradesmen, 10 landholding farmers), which was destroyed in 1916.
(This all told me Dr. Wki...) |
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kasvik
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Post by kasvik on May 7, 2024 0:04:55 GMT
I acquired this cover recently and I've having some difficulty understanding its postal markings. I'd appreciate any advice. The letter was sent to B. L. Fould in Paris (he appears to be a banker) from Nathan Samuel Schutter. Except for the address, salutation and a note on the back flap, the letter was written in Hebrew. The note was added in Paris and indicated that the it was sent on June 8, 1798 and receved on June 15. It adds that a reply was sent the same day it was received. Given the date, and the use of the term 'Citoyen' instead of monsieur, I assume it is from a 'department conquis' - added as a result of the revolutionary wars / expansion of France. However, this is not my area of expertise. I can't find any reference to the postmark on the cover -- "Hte Allemagne". 'Haute Allemagne'? Since there is no department number above the town name, I assume that means that it is a provisiinal marking? There is a number on the back -- 26 inside a circle. You look to be on the right track. Citoyen/citoyenne was polite address during the Revolution. Monsieur was counter-revolutionary, invited suspicion and interrogation, potentially deadly during the Terror years. I'm not sharp on revolution-era practices, but by 1798 older salutations still would, at a minimum, raise eyebrows. Imagine the panic in newly conquered territories. Looks to me like somebody was either a true believer, or more likely just avoiding trouble. Hebrew (Yiddish?) suggests intimacy between Jewish correspondents, or might have been light-weight code. |
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on May 12, 2024 21:54:54 GMT
Thanks to you both. I've delayed in replying in order to do some research based on your feedback. It's been an interesting couple of days. Old timey marcophily is a new area for me. First, I found a wonderful resource by William Waugh - The French Departments Conquis 1791-1815: Their Chronology, Civil Postoffices having Postmarks and Typical Postmarks. It was published by the France and Colonies Philatelic Society in 1980. The town mark in my letter doesn't have a department number. However, Waugh's monograph lists the departments created after the French Revolution and extends the list, year-by-year, during the wars of expansion. Each department he mentions lists the towns. I checked the list for departments prior to the mailing date of the letter - Haute Allemagne is not listed. This supports the argument that it is not in a "department conquis". Which answers my question. I visted the France and Colonies PS website and was rather blown away by the great resources I found there. In their journal, France & Colonies Philatelist, I found a great series of articles in Volume 48 and 49 on French Marcophily. It included even more information on the departments as well as a map and list. As for the 26 inside the circle, on the back of the cover, that was still a bit of a mystery. This kind of arrival mark was introduced in 1791 - the number indicated the day of the month it was reeived. In additiion to the number it was supposed to have a dot inside the circle. I looked closer and found a faint impression of such a dot. However, as the letter was mailed by Nathan Samuel Schutter on June 8, 1798 and received by Citoyen Fould on June 15, an arrival mark of 26 didn't seem to make sense. Then it hit me, why did the sender (and receiver) use standard calender dates? This was the middle of the French Revolution and the use of the French Republican Calendar. I'll never know the answer but they probably weren't very fervant republicans (smile). But, if the post office used the government calendar - which they did until 1805 - then the arrival stamp would reflect the day it was received during the month of Prairial. 14 June, 1798, therefore, would have been 26 Prairial Year VI - the 26 of the month. This assumes that the letter was received by the post office in Paris on June 14 and delivered on the 15th when the receiveer made the handwritten margin note. If my reasoning is off, please let me know. Cheers, Hugh     |
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on May 30, 2024 1:52:15 GMT
Another interesting new cover. The contents are dated February 17, 1814. The cover is stamped in red over two lines ... 109 CHIVASSO. 109 is a Département Conquis -- specifically, La Doire [see: fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doire_(département)] it's in the Piedmont area of Italy and was occupied by France in 1802. Chivasso, on the left bank of the Po River is one of the towns in the département. The cover is being sent from Chivasso to Nice. And, please correct me if I'm wrong, it looks to me that the rate charged for delivery was 5 centimes (the vertical handwritten squiggle in the middle). There is a line drawn under Nice and an expression has been added. [Edit: Les Alpes Maritimes - department 85, where Nice is located -- probably added by a postal worker. Thanks franoise ] After arrival? I can't quite interpret it? Something to do with fabric?In any event, the letter was posted at an interesting time. Four months earlier, in October of 1813, Napoleon had been defeated in the massive battle of Leipzig. The coalition army was now closing in on Paris. The Emperor would be forced to abdicate on April 6th ... seven weeks after the letter was written. I'm looking forward to transcribing it ... but, as usual, I'll probably find it just full of quotidian family or business news (smile). I have hopes though. It looks like the letter might have been sent to a commissary officer at the garrison at Nice? One other interesting thing is that it looks like the letterwriter had to re-use some paper that had been partially used for a child's schoolwork. Notice the difference in writing.    |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 30, 2024 6:58:15 GMT
From the brief look I have had at the child’s handwriting Signed “ Prosper” I think it’s not home work but a message to his Papa about his health.
The first paragraph also refers to “Prosper’s “ improved health and appetite …….
Enjoy translating .
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kasvik
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Post by kasvik on May 30, 2024 7:03:11 GMT
Another interesting new cover. The contents are dated February 17, 1814. The cover is stamped in red over two lines ... 109 CHIVASSO. 109 is a Département Conquis -- specifically, La Doire [see: fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doire_(département)] it's in the Piedmont area of Italy and was occupied by France in 1802. Chivasso, on the left bank of the Po River is one of the towns in the département. The cover is being sent from Chivasso to Nice. And, please correct me if I'm wrong, it looks to me that the rate charged for delivery was 5 centimes (the vertical handwritten squiggle in the middle). There is a line drawn under Nice and an expression has been added. After arrival? I can't quite interpret it? Something to do with fabric? In any event, the letter was posted at an interesting time. Four months earlier, in October of 1813, Napoleon had been defeated in the massive battle of Leipzig. The coalition army was now closing in on Paris. The Emperor would be forced to abdicate on April 6th ... seven weeks after the letter was written. I'm looking forward to transcribing it ... but, as usual, I'll probably find it just full of quotidian family or business news (smile). I have hopes though. It looks like the letter might have been sent to a commissary officer at the garrison at Nice? One other interesting thing is that it looks like the letterwriter had to re-use some paper that had been partially used for a child's schoolwork. Notice the difference in writing.
It's wonderful stuff. As you say, normal and intimate. Prosper is getting it? I think someone (mama/papa?) is proud of that. Good luck cracking it.
I've not certain of French war-time rates, but not 5 centimes--at the time that wouldn't get it across town back when letters were expensive--more likely 5 decimes or 50 centimes. |
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Post by franoise on May 30, 2024 7:48:12 GMT
Under Nice : Alpes Maritimes (name of the department)
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Post by gstamps on May 30, 2024 7:48:41 GMT
"....que j'embrasse tendrement,avec grand prosper." =....whom I embrace tenderly, with great prosperity.
Mama and Anais are the signatories.
There are a few words at the beginning of the letter that I don't understand, but I think they refer to a "Proces-verbal" signed by a doctor attesting to the good state of health.
It is possible that there were disease epidemics and this Protocol was necessary to move from one area to another.
I'm sorry but I don't have time to decipher the writing, but it's possible that native French speakers will succeed.
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on May 30, 2024 10:09:01 GMT
Under Nice : Alpes Maritimes (name of the department) Thank you! I must have spent thirty minutes struggling with the handwriting on that addition last night. Now that you point it out, I can’t not see it - Department 85.  |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 30, 2024 11:57:00 GMT
"....que j'embrasse tendrement,avec grand prosper." =....whom I embrace tenderly, with great prosperity. Mama and Anais are the signatories. There are a few words at the beginning of the letter that I don't understand, but I think they refer to a "Proces-verbal" signed by a doctor attesting to the good state of health. It is possible that there were disease epidemics and this Protocol was necessary to move from one area to another. I'm sorry but I don't have time to decipher the writing, but it's possible that native French speakers will succeed. I think you are mistaken. I read “….que j'embrasse tendrement,avec grandMaman et Anais”. Prosper more or less “sending tender embrace with Grandma and Anais (also). Signed Prosper Not “great prosperity “ |
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Post by gstamps on May 30, 2024 15:18:11 GMT
vikingeck , maybe you're right. I learned French at school 45 years ago and have forgotten a lot. I can't recognize the first 3 words (underlined) and then ,,, un proces verbal pour constater l'etat de sante",,, and the word "prosper" (circled) appears. Being written in both cases with a small "p", I assumed that it is not a name. 
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Post by franoise on May 30, 2024 15:44:50 GMT
"Nous avions dressé un procès-verbal" (we had drawn a report)
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on May 30, 2024 23:42:06 GMT
Thanks everyone. I appreciate all the advice, suggestions and translation support for the department '109 CHIVASSO' cover. I'll be working on a transcription and translation over the summer. This fellow's handwriting is a bit of a challenge. As an undergraduate, I remember taking a course that had a paleography component - some of the assignments involved transcribing old and middle English documents. That was fun, but French? That's a whole new ball game. Could be worse, I suppose. Norman French? - smile. I've decided to collect at least one cover from every d épartement conquis created during the French Revolution and the era of Napoleon. That would be départements 84 to 134 ... created between 1792 and 1812. Here's my latest -- number 116 ... Le Tibre. This was one of two departments created on June 9, 1809 after Napoleon invaded Italy (again) and the France Empire annexed the remainder of the Papal States. The cover was sent from Narni to Rome on January 17, 1814. [ Edit: Make that January 20, 1814. Thanks franoise ... The letter was dated January 17] Both were in the same département. The black handstamp is '116 Narni'. There is a handwritten postal note -- a 3 on the front of the cover -- the postage rate. Not sure if that would be 3 centimes or 3 decimes. The address and the contents of the letter are in Italian. The letter was written near the end of the occupation. After the Congress of Vienna, the Papal States were restored. [Fun fact about Narni, is that the name of the town was the inspiration for C. S. Lewis' Narnia -- the imaginary land in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe series. Studying classics as a teenager in Great Bookham, Lewis came across the name and it stuck with him. Apparently, he liked the sound of it.] There is a handstamp, in black, on the back of the cover. Frankly, I haven't got a clue what it means. Based on how the letter was folded it may not even have been visible while the letter was in transit?   |
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Post by franoise on May 31, 2024 0:01:01 GMT
 20 Janvier (January 20 in French)
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 31, 2024 4:26:46 GMT
Many thanks for this interesting thread, HughFor the Italian translation, perhaps one of our members from Italy can comment: rex, ameis33, or others? |
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 1, 2024 19:07:06 GMT
Well, to go trought these old letters is always challenging...
Let's start from the addressee...
All'Illmo (Illustrissimo) Sig(re) Sig(re) Pron Colmo
Il Sig(re) Filippo de Gasperis
Maestro di Casa e Capiero all'Eccma
Casa Corsini in Banco Vaccari
all'Angiolo Custode
Roma
Well, just this first row worths a deep explication.
Illmo stand for illustrissimo, most illustrious (?)
Sig (re) stand for Signore, Mister (?), but repeated two times... So not just Mr, Very Mr...
Pron Colmo, that's a very old word, Patron Colendissimo, Very respectable master (?)
Maestro di Casa (literaly House Master) should be Butler
but not just butler, also Capiero... but i can't explain this last word... Sounds to me like chief, something like...
So, i'll say
To to most illustrious Mr Mr Very respectable master
Mr Filippo de Gasperis
Butler of the Very Excellent
House Corsini...
Rome
House Corsini... In Rome there is a famous Villa Corsini. It could refer to that palace, but also to another important Corsini family...
Considering the big emphasys given not to the owner of the huose, but to his butler, well, i wonder it could be really that Villa Corsini...
Banco Vaccari could be not the street, but the locality in Rome, but i couldn't find anything matching and the letters seems clear, Banco not i.e. Largo or something different...
But in 1814 it was not really needed to write a complete address, with street, civic number, post-code (BTW still didn't exist...). Just House Corsini would have been enough... So Banco Vaccari could refer to something different, at the moment i cannot say...
all'Angiolo Custode... to the Guardian Angel (?) God bless us...
And this is just the front...
Give me some time for the content...
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 1, 2024 19:24:10 GMT
Illmo Sig(re) Sig(re) Pron Colmo
In sequela alla sua compitissima del 12 stante comprendo non
per conveniente introdurre gli Animali Negri alla vendita in
Codesto Campo di Roma ma bensi di esitarli (?) a poca per volta
a questi nostri mercati viciniari (?). Prevengo Vs. che il paga-
mento di 600. che gli accennaj con altra mia del di 13 stan-aò
te non sarà fatto completamente ma bensi di soli 323
del Sig. Vincengis Valegi (?) mentre l'altro commissionato a Sig.
Damiano Corti non sarà più in grado di farlo per un incaglio
seguito. Sento nolere la prevenzione che Vs. si degna accennar-
mi in Vige... (?) che sarà in ... aumentare e di
tutto le sono infinitamente tenuto e al obbligarlo. ... in
ossequio di suoi pregiati comandi (firma)
Di Vs. Illmo
Silmano 18 gennaio 1814
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 1, 2024 19:38:18 GMT
The rest of the letter doesn't add too much i must say.
The people who wrote the letter should be incharged or anyway is involved in a sale of some kind of "Black animals" (Animali negri).
The term Negri makes me think to porks, but it's just a guess.
He says he agree that the animals should be sold not in Rome but a little bit at a time in another place...
And refering to the payment of 600 (what?) as in the letter of the 12th, the payment would be made just of 323 because Damiano Corti (who should have paid the rest) got an undefined difficulty.
I cannot get some words in the last part of the letter, but the sender most probably asks if there should be an interest to apply and that he's waiting for further commands.
Silmano (or what else?) should be the locality, but i can't find any place with such or similar name around Narni.
The letter has been written the 17 january 1814.
I can't understand the date in the NARNI stamp, but it has been delivered the 20 of January in Rome...
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on Jun 1, 2024 22:03:15 GMT
Silmano (or what else?) should be the locality, but i can't find any place with such or similar name around Narni. The letter has been written the 17 january 1814. I can't understand the date in the NARNI stamp, but it has been delivered the 20 of January in Rome... ... Awesome, thank for your help with this letter. You went above and beyond with the transcription and translation. I'll do some more research and see what connections I can make. I owe you. If there is anything I can do for you, let me know. Aren't puzzles and mysteries fun? (smile) |
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Post by franoise on Jun 2, 2024 4:12:37 GMT
The locality might be Sismano
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ameis33
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 2, 2024 6:49:45 GMT
Sismano, right
Why Narni and not Terni, which was a bigger town?
But, yes, Sismano
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on Jun 16, 2024 16:19:54 GMT
Another Département Conquis … number 87. Department 87 was originally created on March 23, 1793 as Le Mont-Terrible, a département conquis of the First French Republic. This followed the annexation of the Rauracian Republic. only recently created in Switzerland, from the former territories of the Prince-Bishopric of Basel. Long story short … it was the smallest of the new departments and was abolished in 1800 and the territory merged with another department – Haut-Rhin. Five years later number 87 was reassigned to another département conquis – this time a department in Italy of the French Consulate / First French Empire – Gênes. [Genoa] It was created on June 4, 1805 following the annexation of the Ligurian Republic. The following commercial cover is from this second department 87. It was written in Genoa on July 10, 1809 and posted to Marseille. There is a handstamp ’87 GENES’ in black ink on the front of the cover. Not quite sure of the postage rate that was charged.    |
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on Jun 17, 2024 22:46:38 GMT
Département conquis 112 is L’Arno.
This department was created on May 24, 1808 following the annexation of the Kingdom of Etruria.
Just arrived in today's mail, the following letter. It was written in Empoli on March 23, 1814, was posted ‘112 EMPOLI’ to Firenze [Florence]. It was date stamped on arrival three days later -- ‘26 MARS’ on the back of the cover. The postage handwritten on the front … ‘2’ for two décimes – the then current postage rate for a letter of less than 6g going for a distance of less than 50KM.
The distance between Empoli and Florence is about 30 KM. 
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on Jun 25, 2024 11:33:48 GMT
Here's another example from Département Conquis 109 -- La Doire -- occupied by France in 1802. It was posted from Ivree, the capital of the department, to Turin. The postage is handwritten on the front of the cover ... '3' for three décimes. There is also a red '3' inside a circle hand-stamped on the back. 3 décimes is the then current postage rate for a letter of between 6-8g going for a distance of less than 50KM. It is also the rate for a letter of less than 6g going between 50-100KM. The distance between Ivree and Turn is about 48KM according to Google. Since the letter, as I measure it, is less than 6g, I suspect the postal authorities at the time didn't agree with Google. Although I already have one from this department, I couldn't resist adding this one because of the delightful way the letter was folded to make a cover.     |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 25, 2024 13:05:04 GMT
Neat folding .. origami even……pity about the handwriting however.
Often I can make my way through written French with the occasional recourse to Google translate or a dictionary. This one however has me beaten I can only be sure of occasional words or phrases. Much is illegible.
“Broglio has spoken to me about your generous offers….” Is as far as I get.
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 28, 2024 11:10:33 GMT
Just so that Hugh doesn’t have the thread to himself , I just received Dept 108 letter this morning’s post. fine clear handwriting for once ….but in Italian which I don’t read and have not yet had the hours to translate. ”108” was originally a larger department , Le Tanaro. Centred on Asti, but split up in a reorganisation in 1805. So by the time of this letter 1813 it was renamed the dept of Le Montenotte with Savona as the principal town.  Port Maurice ( now Imperia- Porto Maurizio) on the Italian Ligurian coast between the French border and Savona . The letter deals with financial matters as far as I can see skim reading before attempting translation. ![]()  ![]() |
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Hugh
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Post by Hugh on Jun 28, 2024 13:22:49 GMT
Just so that Hugh doesn’t have the thread to himself , I just received Dept 108 letter this morning’s post. fine clear handwriting for once ….but in Italian which I don’t read and have not yet had the hours to translate. ”108” was originally a larger department , Le Tanaro. Centred on Asti, but split up in a reorganisation in 1805. So by the time of this letter 1813 it was renamed the dept of Le Montenotte with Savona as the principal town. ![]() Actually vikingeck I'd be more than delighted to share this thread with you and anyone else - smile. There have been some wonderful comments and support on the examples I've posted but it would be great for others to jump in with examples of their own. So thanks for sharing your '108'. I know this is an interest we share. I saw your 2023 post about buying 5 departement conquis covers at the NY stamp show. I'd love to see them. Cheers, |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jul 2, 2024 20:27:43 GMT
The invasion of the AUSTRIAN NETHERLANDS ( Belgium and Luxembourg) occurred early in the expansion of France's boundaries in the Revolutionary Wars creating new North Eastern Departements Conquis . Dept. 86 " Le Jemmappes" round Mons in Belgium occupied in 1791, the dept. dates from 1793  Rated "5" Decimes Only the wrapper part of the cover remains. the letter has been removed From BINCH (Binche) to Paris with a Paris arrival in red of 8 September 1809 To "Monsieur Levavasseur of Appeals, Head of liquidation division 89 Rue de Clery " No letter, but was someone trying to recover property confiscated by the invasion ? |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jul 2, 2024 21:05:32 GMT
And round GAND (Ghent) we have Dept 92 "L'Escault" 17 Feb 1810 to Verviers rated "4 " decimes for 113 miles with a small arrival stamp of 19 Feb 1810 on the seal at the back Francomont is a hamlet in the municipality of Lambermont, in the Belgian province of Liège.  The letter however is almost illegible I can make out a couple of words here and there ................the writing is so bad ,I have a suspicion it is written by a doctor ! The first line merely repeats the address "Mr JeanNicolas? David a Francomont pres Verviers " but there after  ?  ![]() |
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