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Post by clivel on Jul 13, 2024 7:16:42 GMT
I received a Delcampe purchase a few days ago; a group of stamps all listed as MNH. However, upon examining the stamps when they arrived I was disappointed to find that each had a catalogue number hand written in pencil on the back. Had I been aware of the pencil annotation I would not have bid on the stamps.
Although, MNH (mint never hinged) literally means that the stamps have never been mounted by means of a hinge, I have always assumed it to mean a stamp with a pristine back, that is without any marks or inclusions that were not part of the original manufacturing process, so at the very least the seller should have made note of the pencil marks in the listing.
I gently tried to remove the pencil marks on two of the low denomination stamps using a clean white Staedtler eraser, but it left a very noticeable grey blob.
I have advised the seller that I would like to return the stamps for a full refund but have yet to hear back.
Am I being unreasonable, or would other collectors also assume that stamps sold as MNH would not have markings on the back?
Clive
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rod222
Member
Posts: 10,681
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jul 13, 2024 7:30:21 GMT
Am I being unreasonable, or would other collectors also assume that stamps sold as MNH would not have markings on the back?
Clive
Hi Clive, I don't think so, over the years I have come accustomed to buyer's wants, expectations and assumptions. What has become clear, is how professionals describe their offerings. You immediately feel safe, when you read of a "pulled perf" a small marking, attached part hinge etc. and, generally images of the reverse. Unfortunately, few vendors are that savvy, and we end up with what you describe. I will assume the vendor will take back the lot, and we, in the future, must get used to ask from the vendor prior to making a bid, if the reverse image is not included. I would assume MNH is how the stamp left the printer, not soiled in any way. Good Luck
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fazeman
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Posts: 295
What I collect: Worldwide
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Post by fazeman on Jul 13, 2024 11:34:06 GMT
clivel, As per your description, MNH means as clean as Kleenex. So you're not being unreasonable.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,622
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jul 13, 2024 11:43:51 GMT
clivel - you are NOT being unreasonable! Anything that deviates from how the gum on the stamp was issued - or “post fresh” as called in euro auctions is NOT MNH! Pencilling can be Worse even than hinges sometimes as the print might emboss the paper. If I see ANY faults or changes on the gum side, I put them in my MH lots. I would contact the seller - maybe it was a simple oversight, you never know. But - dang - isn’t it aggravating to get something different than expected? Disappointing, too. I’m always torn about feedback for transactions like that. I’ve settled on positive feedback if they make it right, mention how friendly the communication was, etc, but I always mention what was wrong just in case it wasn’t a one off. Something like - “Seller graciously offered an immediate refund and accepted return of incorrectly described item.”
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stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jul 13, 2024 14:19:02 GMT
clivelNot unreasonable at all! The onus is on the seller to properly describe whats being sold. In the past several years, if I am interested in an offering, but there is no image of the back, I request one. I've also 'learned' to ask , if not stated, if the stamps in the image are the actual stamps being sold, or is a stock photo being used. Let your refund be a lesson to the seller (In a perfect world!)
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Post by nick2302 on Jul 13, 2024 14:24:22 GMT
If you find a lot you want to seriously bid on, I do not think it unreasonable to ask for a picture of the back side of the lot. MNH means a clean stamp front and back with gum undisturbed and none of the perfs damaged. Nick
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,823
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 13, 2024 14:45:59 GMT
Thanks for your post, clivelI am with you and all the rest on this, Clive. An item described as MNH should be pristine on the back: no markings, undisturbed gum, etc. In fact, I once worked with a dealer who told me that if a stamp was issued with a fault in the gum, such as a skip, that he would not sell it as MNH. It was his contention that even stamps with production faults would not qualify as MNH. I thought this made sense to me, so I have adopted the same philosophy. Not long ago, I bought a pair of stamps described on eBay as MNH, and upon receiving them, I found that while it does indeed appear that they have never seen a hinge, the gum was "tropicalized" and not at all pristine. I consider these misdescribed as MNH. Anyone who tries to claim a stamp is MNH when the back is not in pristine condition is attempting to trade on a literal technicality, i.e., that the stamp has never been hinged despite other faults. I think you are being reasonable in this case. I also wish that online sellers would routinely supply scans of the backs of their material to save observant buyers from these sorts of problems. In your case, it would have been obvious that the stamps were not pristine on the backs.
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Post by PostmasterGS on Jul 13, 2024 14:54:22 GMT
An item described as MNH should be pristine on the back: no markings, undisturbed gum, etc. That really depends on your collecting area, though. In collecting Germany, it's common to have MNH stamps with expert marks stamped on the rear, and they're still considered MNH.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,823
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jul 13, 2024 15:00:44 GMT
Fair point, PostmasterGS! I wasn't thinking about expertizing marks. I have had poor experiences with those (forged ones), and so in fact, I don't find them especially useful. That said, I understand that in your area of expertise, they may be considered a must in some cases. Thank you for pointing this out. Exception noted!
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jul 13, 2024 16:44:23 GMT
Thanks for your post, clivel I am with you and all the rest on this, Clive. An item described as MNH should be pristine on the back: no markings, undisturbed gum, Not long ago, I bought a pair of stamps described on eBay as MNH, and upon receiving them, I found that while it does indeed appear that they have never seen a hinge, the gum was "tropicalized" and not at all pristine. I consider these misdescribed as MNH. Anyone who tries to claim a stamp is MNH when the back is not in pristine condition is attempting to trade on a literal technicality, i.e., that the stamp has never been hinged despite other faults. The emphasis would be on the proper use of the word “Mint”. It should equate to “pristine as issued” and really the description “hinged Mint” is inaccurate, though of course it is widely used even in respectable catalogues. I use it myself in listings. I have even seen descriptions “mint heavy hinge “ and “mint without gum “ when the description should be “unused hinged “ Beryllium Guy’s seller should have described his stamps as “never hinged , toned gum”, but I suspect a scan of the back might not give a true rendition, knowing what we all have to say about the accuracy of colours in a scan or photo image
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Cephus
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Posts: 166
What I collect: U.S. 1847-1993, Australia, China, New Zealand
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Post by Cephus on Jul 13, 2024 19:43:55 GMT
Not unreasonable at all. If it wasn't disclosed in the description, then the stamps are not as described. Return them for a full refund.
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,909
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Jul 15, 2024 10:05:39 GMT
I feel your pain clivel ; nothing worse than turning over the stamp to take a look at its backside only to discover a flaw in a recent purchase. For my own collecting interests, pristine, undisturbed gum always brings a smile to my face and the heart beat a little faster ;-) With that in mind, perhaps new terminology is in order; rather than Mint / Unmounted (UM), Never Hinged (MNH) we shift toward Undisturbed or Disturbed Gum (UDG, DG). This would take into account not only hinge marks, but pencils marks, natural gum skips, expert notations and any thing else that might be considered less than optimal... Have fun and happy collecting!
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angore
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Posts: 5,568
What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Jul 15, 2024 10:27:35 GMT
Pencil marks should be disclosed
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salentin
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collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,126
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Post by salentin on Jul 15, 2024 11:45:27 GMT
I think "postfrisch" in German is a pretty good term.And it is also legally binding. If you find any other,often flowery terms for mint stamps in the german era,you know,they are not "postfrisch". With mounted stamps it is more difficult: Michel lists them as stamps with a single clean mount or trace of it. Twice mounted stamps,or stamps with part-gum, pen-marks etc.value less. Regummed stamps,they maybe as good looking as postfrisch,value the same as stamps without gum.
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Post by dgdecker on Jul 15, 2024 13:12:21 GMT
In my view they items were not properly described and a refund should be issued. As other as indicated « mint » should me undisturbed gum including markings. I have a few purchases of this sort over the years. As were of low cost, I did not ask for a refund. I did have positive exchanges with the sellers about the pencil markings. Since that experience, I tend to ask for photos of back of stamp.
David
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sudbury12000
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Posts: 342
What I collect: Canada, Great Britain, Germany, World Pre 1925
Member is Online
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Post by sudbury12000 on Jul 15, 2024 13:17:19 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree with many of the posts here clivel. Mint Never Used is if it just came from the Post Office of issue. Pencil annotations are fine if they are disclosed. If they are not you deserve a refund. Good luck!
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drblade
Member
Posts: 822
What I collect: GB Unmounted mint & Machin definitives Q.E.II Used commemoratives
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Post by drblade on Jul 15, 2024 13:23:17 GMT
I received a Delcampe purchase a few days ago; a group of stamps all listed as MNH. However, upon examining the stamps when they arrived I was disappointed to find that each had a catalogue number hand written in pencil on the back. Had I been aware of the pencil annotation I would not have bid on the stamps.
Although, MNH (mint never hinged) literally means that the stamps have never been mounted by means of a hinge, I have always assumed it to mean a stamp with a pristine back, that is without any marks or inclusions that were not part of the original manufacturing process, so at the very least the seller should have made note of the pencil marks in the listing.
I gently tried to remove the pencil marks on two of the low denomination stamps using a clean white Staedtler eraser, but it left a very noticeable grey blob.
I have advised the seller that I would like to return the stamps for a full refund but have yet to hear back.
Am I being unreasonable, or would other collectors also assume that stamps sold as MNH would not have markings on the back?
Clive
Definitely NOT unreasonable. I collect GB unmounted mint never hinged examples. Defacing the gum means it is not in mint condition in my opinion. That's why a lot of dealers are dealers & not collectors as well.
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paul1
Member
Posts: 1,207
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Post by paul1 on Jul 15, 2024 15:40:00 GMT
hmmm - I sympathise, but looked at dispassionately you may have a problem - the seller has not lied in his description, though we agree that they have been less than open perhaps. I see many stamps where a previous owner has made faint pencil marks on the back - presumably SG/Sc./M catalogue Nos. You don't say clivel what you paid for these, and am not going to ask you to divulge. Do you think you had a bargain or did you pay full whack? - though of course to you those questions may not mean a lot - you simply want immaculate stamps and presently you don't have them. I suppose there are those who will say that this situation won't affect the stamp - and of course can't be seen - the expression 'mint' to most folk will mean simply unused, and MUM will mean the lack of previous hinge marks - those of us who purchase used stamps, or lightly mounted, for example - are without these difficulties. Wish you luck with the outcome and hope you get what you want
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BermudaSailor
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What I collect: British colonies, primary Bermuda
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Post by BermudaSailor on Jul 25, 2024 13:42:09 GMT
I would, like the vast majority of the people who have responded to your post, find such a lot totally unacceptable. I assume the vendor will accept the return.
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jbemmel
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Posts: 11
What I collect: Nicely canceled Scandinavia, Netherlands
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Post by jbemmel on Jul 25, 2024 15:19:12 GMT
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Post by clivel on Jul 25, 2024 20:21:05 GMT
Thanks for the information jbemmel but I am in a bit of a quandary.
When I bought these stamps, the seller took a few weeks to ship, but he messaged me to say that he had had some health issues and had been in hospital several times.
He has not yet responded to my request to return these stamps for a refund. Although I could have requested the refund through Delcampe, but given the seller's health issues I decided not to.
Hopefully he eventually gets back to me, but if not I think that I am just going to write it off to experience.
Clive
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