Let’s discuss identifying different paper types

I have 98 files on paper, varying in depth.
Here is a random pot pourri, that may /may not interest

Silk Paper





Quadrille


Ribbed Paper


A dear friend, the late Ros Brookes, sending me a message in 2014, on her own "Hand made paper"   
we both volunteered  with "Meals on Wheels"  for the elderly

While 'depaging" Austrian stamps, I find some pages labeled "Thick chalky paper" and "Thin ordinary paper"

Here is same denomination 1908-1913 postage due stamps. The "thin ordinary paper" measures  0.06-0.07 mm, while the "Thick chalky paper" measures 0.09 mm (using a digital micrometer) I haven't yet figured out chalky versus none by looking at these, but there are some others as  I see little to be gained by drawing any conclusion based on just these (and the more worn appearance of the thick chalky paper stamp may not necessarily be because it was printed on chalky paper (anybody know ant distinctive traits?)
Stamp on left in Thin Ordinary, on right  Thick chalky

here's the backs, same l to right orientation

here's a backlit scan (positions are opposite) thin on right-   the reater degree of transparenct is apparent in the 'thin'- you can also see the greater porosity of the thin paper by the larger quantity of specks where light is penetrating the paper.

and here's a close-up of dust the denomination are where there is the greatest amount of solid printed area.


I'll compare some more and if there's any tell-tale clues (whether real or imaginary) I'll post.

rod222 do you know which type of silver solder? most common is silver/copper, but some also have brass?

Maybe it doesn't as only the silver reacts.... in which case I wonder if silver jewelry would cause the same reaction?


There's a few marked 'thick chalky paper; that have some noticeable flaws- I may 'experiment' with these

but for now, a beautiful cool, blue skied morning in northern California and I'm off for a round of golf!

I have found a total of seven (7) stamps labeled as 'thick chalky paper' and 32 labeled as 'thin ordinary paper'. All are the  1908-1913 postage due issues. As they have all come off pages, they have hinges on them (in some case hinge on hinge, and a couple with paper (envelope) remnants. So I have soaked those marked 'thin ordinary and they are now in a drying book. The "Thick chalky paper" stamps are in my Stamplift box (since there are only 7 they all fit). I know that in some instances 'chalky' paper was used so that the printed images would deteriorate if soaked, and though I think these Austrian stamps would not be affected by soaking, I'm taking the extra precaution  (just in case). The Stamplift Box can sometimes take a few days, but once all have been dried/flattened, i'll measure and see if the different thicknesses hold up, and also if I can see any differences between the two. The thin paper appears more porous and perhaps there is more exposed paper fibers noticeable at the perf separations (this is true for some of the French paper types from about the same era)

It also seems that 'chalky' paper is a somewhat generic term as various minerals could  have been used both 'chalks' and 'clays' (gypsum, calcite, talc, kaolin, limestone.. I suppose it had more to do with what was locally available), but the main purpose was to make the surface smoother (at least that is my understanding)

For the record,
here is the discussion I had  in 2007

Local: Sun, Sep 9 2007 9:55 pm
Subject: Chalk surface paper (Rodney)
How can you tell if a stamp is chalk surfaced or not?
Discussion subject changed to "(RCSD) Chalk surface paper" by Blair (TC)
Blair (TC) View profile
More options Sep 9, 10:23 pm

Chalky paper, used especially on British stamps, is easy to identify.
Chalk-surfaced stamps when rubbed with silver will leave a black mark
on them. Be careful when testing these and just touch a small corner or
part of the stamp.
You can sort out some of the modern ordinary & chalky paper stamp
issues with an Ultra-Violet lamp.
Blair
------------------------------------------------
Sir F. A. Rien View profile

More options Sep 9, 10:33 pm
Lightly stroke with a piece of silver solder. Grey mark - surfaced.
Do it on the edge or other area and it will clean off with an artist's gum
eraser - NOT, NOT a pencil eraser !!!
--------------------------------------------
Discussion subject changed to "(RCSD) Chalk surface paper" by Nick Bridgwater
Nick Bridgwater View profile
More options Sep 9, 11:37 pm
Another way to tell chalk surfaced paper is to hold the stamp to the
outside of your (dry) lip - chalk surfaced paper will feel noticeably
colder & smoother than ordinary paper.
Regards,
Nick
--------------------------------------
Douglas Myall View profile
More options Sep 10, 12:35 am

What Blair says is perfectly true but you need to know whether the
paper you are testing is indeed coated with chalk; some papers are
coated with other materials, such as china clay. In addition, all
coated papers need to be distinguished from those where the filler is
added to the pulp mix. Your catalogue should tell you what the papers
are for the stamps you are interested in.

Douglas
-----------------------------------------------
From: Rein <dzie...@xs4all.nl>
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:08:43 +0200
Douglas,
so isn't the real problem to get coated paper distinguished from
non-coated papers???
And in such a way that the method will be non-destructive? Using silver
sounds like barbarism.

I'm not sure whether I can count on my catalogues as to what type of
papers are involved. Maybe in the early 20th century philatelists had an
obsession for chalky paper [not just Anglosaxon countries but also
Portugal, Switzerland] but later on - and certainly in the last few
decennia - hardly anybody cares for the paper itself. They may want to
distinguish types of phosphor and the like, but not the base paper or the
immediate coatings underneath the printing inks....
groetjes, Rein

Really ... "They may want to distinguish types of phosphor and the like,
but not the base paper or the immediate coatings underneath the printing
inks...."

Chalk surface is a -=major=- distinction in GB Edwardian period and
continues through some George.


"Rubbing" with silver (coins, tableware, etc.) is potentially damaging,
lightly stroking with a small looped end of a twist of silver solder or
jewler's silver 'wire' leaves but a tiny mark and is easily lifted with
artist's gum erasers - NOT, NOT pencil erasers!!!
Rein <dzie...@xs4all.nl> found these unused words:


Except, maybe for those WEIRDO Belgian RR papers. :^) White paper,
phosphor, polyvalent, blah, blah, blah...
----------------------------------------------
I picked up this tip at a show this past weekend.
If the watermark is nearly impossible to see, even
in fluid, then it's chalk surfaced paper.

Jay Carrigan
<www.jaypx.com>

... "then it's" =-probably=- "chalk surfaced paper."
Not always and the reverse is definitely -=NOT=- true.
I've quite a few chalk surfaced ED VII's that have a good watermark to the
eye, without fluid.

clivel

Hi Clive,
your post, got me off my butt, to search the "Silk paper", Thanks.

You may wish to peruse

link

Hi Stan, stainlessb
I understand that you have the Austria Michel specialized catalog.
I advise you to use it with confidence.
It is difficult to understand the name of the papers, but the site posted previously can help you.
I have only for Germany and I am very satisfied with the way the paper types are described.
In Michel, when the term thin/thick is used, the dimensions in millimeters are also given.
For the type of paper "y"-thin almost transparent paper - isn't the size mentioned?
What is the German name for "x" paper? kreidepapier or gestrichenes papier?
It would be good to post a picture from the catalog so that I can understand and give you an opinion.
I'll give you a quick example of sorting thin paper.
There are 2 stamps Mi 4 North German Confederation, 1868.




The image on the back of the stamps is easy to see




and I measured the stamp on which the drawing can be seen (almost transparent paper) and thus I had the joy of being in possession of a stamp with thin paper variety:







The other 2 types of paper can be identified by the characteristics mentioned in Michel - glossy or smooth - experience and a sufficient comparative batch are required.

salentin, I don't know if these changes are not made just to encourage the sending of stamps for expertise.
Let me give you an example.
I have a Mi 4 sheet, Berlin Brandenburg




It is "wa" paper 0.06 - 0.08 mm.
"Abarten" mentions thin paper "s" (dunner als 0.06mm).
The stamps in the sheet are 0.06mm (unfortunately, I don't have a measuring device with a higher precision)
The difference in value is large 0.4 E (wa paper) compared to 30 E (s paper)
What size is the "s" paper in your catalog?
PS another unknown is the color - which I think is "b" color (hellsiena)

gstamps

paper x is Kreidepapier (1908) thedre may be a dimension elsewhere in the catalogue, but not on the page with thes estamps, nor is there a 'Papier" in the index....

here is the cover


I will go to the beginning and see if i can find any mention. Although the same word may be used in the German Michel catalogue as this one, I would wonder if both countries used the same paper?

salentin brings up the question of with or without gum. This does make a difference.

i wonder on the stamps that were labeled a 'thick chalky' if the collector who made the pages and mounted the stamps was going by 'feel'? many of the 7 stamps labeled this way had multiple hinge remnants which would/could make th estamp seem thicker.

I'm going to dig out some silver coins and try that approach (?)

I think I have the same digital micrometer as you!

Looking from the earliest austrian issues- I find a brief mention of handmade paper being very thin 0.03mm with no mention of gum, so my conclusion is this was likely before gum was applied.

In the lacquer bar Franz Joseph issue there is dimensional information of the width or spacing of the lacquer bars (not sure which)

There are various descriptions of paper types, but all lack a measurement of thickness.

The 14 and 25 Heller were only issued on 'smooth ordinary paper: (Gewöhnliches glattes papier 1910- 1913 ( so I'll go see if I can find any dates from the postmarks ) but all my examples of the 14H and 25H without gum measure 0.07mm. It seems safe to conclude the smooth ordinary paper was 0.07mm (no gum)for all denominations 

I suppose it is quite possible the glazed coated chalky paper could be the same thickness as the 'ordinary smooth"

The thin paper, described as glossless would be <0.07 mm and dull

Michel lists paper x with a single year date - 1908
paper y - 1909
and paper z 1910 - 1913

Although early year printings could become postally used after that paper was no longer in use, would you think it reasonable to think that paper x was preceded by y, which was in turn preceded by x? would think there would b little reason to use different types of paper from a procurement perspective.

Looking at the cancel dates I have, I have but one that may be 1908 , but could also be be 1909as only a potion of the second year digit is viewable. 4 more with clearly 1909 measure thinner 0.04 - 0.04mm, while the one 08/09 is thicker 0.07mm, looking at the back it is much more opaque. I have found one other 1911 and one 1916.

Two more 'thin' paper in 1910, afterwhich most everything (with a cancel date) appears to be paper z. same thickness as paper x but not as opaque as the earliest years (paper x) as far as dullness, glossy, shiney.... not sure- may be easier to discern on mint stamps (of which I have none)

I still haven't gone into the catacombs to recover a silver coin (my childhood collection is packed away)

I have to say I am suspect of the "silver", although I suppose it's possible that not a single postage due stamp I have is on the 'kreidepapier'. I used both a silver ring, and a 2001 Silver American Eagle (silver dollar 99% silver).

Chalky paper used in 1908 ( Michel doesn't indicate whether there is an overlap with the 'dünnes' thin paper beginning 1909. I have no stamps with postmarks (that I can read) earlier than 1909, however, there are 3 that have a more yellowish looking paper, compare to the thin paper which looks to have grayish cast to the paper. The paper of the 3 earliest postmarks looks very similar tot he stamps that came off of pages labeled  'Thick chalky paper'

i have 10 stamps with postmarks from 1910 and 1912, a few with the yellowish looking paper, most with the grayish. 19143 is when th e'ordinary' paper appeared, and two denomination s,17H and 25H were printed on this paper, so at least a metric of sorts for the 'ordinary' paper

I suppose now I should go back and look at other stamps printed in/around 1908 to see if I can spot something a bit me conclusive.

If anyone has information regarding whether there was an overlap in paper used, or specif dates (instead of just a year), please chime in!!

enquiring minds want to know!

stanley64

thanks for th elink- any idea who composed this (it has no title or author... or for that matter references.(?)