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Post by jamesw on Jan 5, 2014 4:41:55 GMT
Working on my cover pages tonight. Noticed a difference in the flag cancel on these two covers three years apart. Flag given more wave between 1896 and 1899. Also noticed the two heavy bars helping cancel the elderly Queen Victoria on the tattered cover on top. Any explanation for those?
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Post by jamesw on Jan 5, 2014 4:58:02 GMT
I'll answer my own question. Had a quick look on SCF and found this explanation from our friend Backroads. I'll attach his image (if he's tuning in, I hope he doesn't mind my sharing his resource. I give him full credit). It is a page from a book called 'Holmes Specialized Philatelic Catalogue of Canada and British North America' I've printed it out on a page, and unfortunately the resolution isn't very good. Which means there's ANOTHER book I've got to look for. The flag with the bars is a type 9. The older cancel is, I think, a type 3. Kind of hard to tell.
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I.L.S.
Departed
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I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
Posts: 2,113
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Post by I.L.S. on Jan 5, 2014 10:20:46 GMT
I'm sorry James I missed this post earlier However, I had no idea Canada had used a flag cancellation device? I have never seen one before- Great stuff! Was it used on an American Postal Machine Company machine by any chance? The reason I ask is that it was the only machine that used the flag cancel. I believe there is a caveat here though, because the Time-Marking/Cummins company produced a single flag cancel machine for Lahaina, Hawaii. Otherwise, this style of cancel was not used by any other machine. just a quick thought.
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therealwesty
Member
Inactive
Sorting my Small Queens
Posts: 331
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Post by therealwesty on Jan 5, 2014 13:33:03 GMT
I love those flag cancels! And you've got some nice clear examples there too. I haven't yet found a nice one on cover, but I have a few fragments on some lose singles. The bars must have been added to the 1899 strike to strengthen the obliterating qualities. The flags must Canada's first slogan cancels, anyone have any more reading on that subject?
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 5, 2014 16:15:09 GMT
James, Holmes has been my go to book since I picked up the 68 edition.Not sure when last one was published.It has quite a bit of early obscure info.I believe one of the "consultants" also issues certs.{Greene}Watch ebay for used copies should be reasonable.In my copy I had made notes about prices of Jubs.Mint at that time was couple hundred each.
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,722
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Jan 6, 2014 8:19:52 GMT
James, Holmes has been my go to book since I picked up the 68 edition.Not sure when last one was published. I also have a 1968 copy, and I think it's the last edition that was published. Hmm, according to the Wikipedia page on Dr. Holmes, 1968 is in fact the last edition. Dr. Holmes died in 1961. Ryan
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 6, 2014 14:31:08 GMT
Ryan, does Darnell still print new catalogs? I haven't purchased a book type thing in quite awhile.Suppose my tight budget makes me choose between stamps or books and we know what that choice will be.
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,722
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Jan 7, 2014 0:27:17 GMT
Ryan, does Darnell still print new catalogs? If I remember correctly, the last one I've ever seen is the 2005 edition. Both English and French language versions were available. There was also a Darnell EFO catalogue, printed in the same year I think, maybe the year before (I'm still not home, I can't check my bookshelf). The Rousseau website (Darnell publishers) no longer mentions any catalogues, so I guess it's dead in the water. www.rousseaucollections.com/en/coins_and_stamp_supplies.htmlUnitrade has improved considerably under Robin Harris' editorship and is now a much better catalogue in my opinion, but at the time there were some listings in the Darnell catalogue that were useful - paper varieties on the backs of stamps, for example (some QEII commemoratives had hi-brite fluorescence on the back of the stamp). There were also many of the pointless "colour shift" varieties with very inflated prices. Two-colour stamp with one colour poorly centred? $10! haha Ryan
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 7, 2014 4:43:36 GMT
Thanks Ryan.I have the 2005 but its outdated now.I agree Unitrade has gotten a slightly better over all tone to it.I guess my biggest complaint would be the holding to the Scott format of grouping definitives together like every four years regardless of when they were issued.Has NO historical sense that way.As far as varieties I trust Darnell more,although using both Unitrade and Darnell there are tons of collectable varieties.
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lokos
Member
Inactive
Ontario, Canada
Posts: 167
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Post by lokos on Jan 10, 2014 23:35:07 GMT
Working on my cover pages tonight. Noticed a difference in the flag cancel on these two covers three years apart. Flag given more wave between 1896 and 1899. Also noticed the two heavy bars helping cancel the elderly Queen Victoria on the tattered cover on top. Any explanation for those? Hi James Here's a link for a BNAPS study group for the Cdn. flag cancels. I don't think the group is still active but you can still access a bunch of their newsletters. I took a quick look through some of them and there's some interesting reading. Flag Cancel Study Group NewslettersAnother reference, which I've never actually seen, is the The Canadian flag cancellation handbook 1896-1973, by Ed Richardson I don't collect them myself but they definitely are pretty. Here's a couple I had a few years back. Rick
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Post by jamesw on Jan 11, 2014 2:48:17 GMT
thanks for the link Lokos, and welcome to the forum! I'm actually considering applying to joining BNAPS this year. Meanwhile, work was slow today so I went on a little subway trip. As the Kinks sang, "I went to my local dealer to see if he could set me straight". And he did. Managed to pick up a copy of the Holmes catalogue, 1963 edition (you guys are right, lots of great info in there), as well as the Ontario Broken Circles book by Bruce Graham, mentioned in my Franklin cancel thread. Also got a nice booklet called The Early Rapid Cancelling Machines of Canada by David Sessions. I think I'm pretty set for a while regarding cancel information for my Canadian collection. My guy spent some time trying to find a book specifically on the flag cancels, but couldn't locate it. Possibly the one you mention, lokos.
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 11, 2014 2:56:25 GMT
James check out those early inverted provisionals.If they didn't exsist where did the pictures come from???
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firstfrog2013
Member
Posts: 3,276
What I collect: BNA Liberia St Pierre U.S. Bolivia Turkey
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Jan 11, 2014 3:01:01 GMT
Oh yeah,James is there any info on city cancels with letter codes did other cities beside Montreal use those letter codes for P.O.'s??I found bunch of admirals with those letters and couple early thirties as well always curious about stuff .
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Post by jamesw on Jan 11, 2014 3:40:37 GMT
Ah, so suddenly I'm the 'go to guy' for cancels, huh? Figures! (just kidding, actually. You bunch have helped my countless times, so I'm more than happy to help if I can). Not sure what you are referring to regarding inverted provisionals, FF, but as far as the letters go, yes there's more info. I'm still trying to figure out what the letters mean. I understand on US cancels they indicate whether the letter was dropped off, picked up etc., but here north of the 49th, they seem to have a different meaning. From what I can glean so far they indicate the die of the cancel. Montreal used A, C, D, and E. Montreal also had a mysterious K cancel used for 7 days only! Hamilton used A and B Toronto used A - F ( I think they may have referred to postal stations, but I'll need to read more in depth)
That just seems to be flag cancels, which were printed on a Bickerdike machine.
There are other straight and wavy line cancels with other letters. Example Niagara Falls - R
I'm sure there is lots I'm missing, so stay tuned.
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vggvp
**Member**
Posts: 14
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Post by vggvp on Jan 12, 2014 22:22:50 GMT
jamesw Congratulations on your purchase of these books that are so important in the understanding of Canadian postal history. You will never regret your investment. Similarly, a membership in BNAPS will pay for itself many times over in both financial and non-financial aspects.
Since you mention that you took a subway trip to a stamp dealer, I am guessing that there is a reasonable chance that you are in Toronto. If that is the case, you should make it a point to visit the research library at the Greene Foundation. Go to the website (www.greenefoundation.ca) to make sure the library is open and come for a visit. You will be impressed by the available material and by our library staff who will make every effort to assist you.
gjp
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Post by jamesw on Jan 12, 2014 23:09:17 GMT
Hi vggvp (did I spell that right?) and welcome to the forum. Thanks, and yes I'm very happy to get these books. I've been making a real effort the last few months to increase my home library. As nice as it is to have forums such as this to pick brains, it's also very good to have some of the information at my own fingertips (and hopefully offer my brain for picking, such as it is). I am familiar with the Greene. A member came and spoke at my club a few months ago about their new machine (I won't even try to remember the name of it), and it was quite fascinating. Ran into another Greener at the Toronto (yes you got my location correct, though I actually live north of the city) Old Book and Paper Show this past fall. He had just finished picking through a selection of books and pamphlets I was looking for, to add to the Greene library. He was able to leave me some nice stuff. So, although I'm having to start rethinking my shelving options in my home studio - only so much room - information is power. And I can use all I can get!
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vggvp
**Member**
Posts: 14
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Post by vggvp on Jan 13, 2014 19:30:58 GMT
Hi again jamesw I think that the speaker at your club was yours truly. I spoke last year at Collingwood, Barrie and Muskoka (plus 12 other clubs in southern Ontario. The machine that was the subject of my presentation is the Foster+Freeman VSC6000 (Video Spectral Comparator). If you wish to see more of the VSC6000, I suggest you visit the Foster+Freeman website where they have a 25 minute presentation that uses banknotes instead of stamps. When it comes to building a philatelic library, I find that there is no substitute for having an assortment of good research material on hand. Knowledge truly is power. GJP
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Post by jamesw on Jan 14, 2014 1:57:45 GMT
Ah, well, I'm red faced. I'm not great at remembering names, but you'd think I'd recall a Mr. Vggvp! (wink wink) That was a great talk, let me thank you again. Very informative! Yes, it was at the Barrie club. Too bad you can't give a presentation to the folks here on the forum, but I think it would loose something.
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I.L.S.
Departed
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I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
Posts: 2,113
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Post by I.L.S. on Jan 22, 2014 10:43:03 GMT
Here James I got you something to add to your Canadian Flag Cancel cover collection.
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Post by jamesw on Jan 25, 2014 2:48:21 GMT
Jeff, you are a class act! As my ol' Dad used to say, a gentleman and a scholar. Beautiful Imperial obliterator cancel Type F1, with a D die letter on a Small Queen #41. But then, you already knew that. Many many thanks.
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I.L.S.
Departed
Rest in Peace
I am in Clearfield, Pa. I love US Classic covers!
Posts: 2,113
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Post by I.L.S. on Jan 26, 2014 9:38:58 GMT
It was my pleasure. Thank you that's quite a compliment James!
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rod222
Member
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 7, 2015 4:09:47 GMT
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Post by jimjung on Sept 7, 2015 11:41:48 GMT
Here's a few examples of the Type 2 Montreal Straight Jack Flag Cancel. Tough to find but collectors prefer to have the full cover. I copied the text from the internet for my album page many years ago. The covers sell in the $100-$200 range.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 9,930
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Sept 7, 2015 11:52:10 GMT
Here's a few examples of the Type 2 Montreal Straight Jack Flag Cancel. Tough to find but collectors prefer to have the full cover. I copied the text from the internet for my album page many years ago. The covers sell in the $100-$200 range. Fabulous! I love these "boutique" style pages of interest. Great work Jim.
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