Jen B
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Post by Jen B on Mar 22, 2014 0:08:44 GMT
I was going through a collection of Polish stamps on Minkus album pages the other day. Most of the 1945-50 issues looked like this:  Uniformly brown, almost like they were printed on paper grocery bag paper. I don't have any other stamps to compare them to, but the Scott's catalog shows them with white paper. Here is what the back of the album page looks like. This would be the page that was lying on the face of the stamps.  Does anyone know if this discoloration is caused by the album page or by the stamps? The rest of the stamps on the same Minkus pages were fine (pre-194 and post-1950). Were the '45-50 issues of Poland printed on paper with a high acid content and tend to do this? Thanks |
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Philatarium
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Post by Philatarium on Mar 22, 2014 5:00:38 GMT
Jen: I'm not really the right person to be answering this, so let me just offer a couple of observations, until someone knowledgeable comes along.
First, in looking through the Scott catalog for Poland during that timeframe, there are a few stamps that look brownish or brown -- more than you'd ordinarily expect for Scott -- so I imagine that's partially an answer that those stamps are a problem.
The other thought is maybe to check at Bidstart. Put in a search for Poland and the Scott # for a candidate or two and see what the stamps being offered, if available, look like.
I know there's also a set of Japanese stamps (issued in Taiwan) for which this is also a problem.
Good luck with this! Let us know what you learn.
-- Dave
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I.L.S.
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Post by I.L.S. on Mar 22, 2014 10:35:43 GMT
It could be a combination of the stamp and the album page/paper. The sizing used can be of a very acidic pH and wreak havoc after a few years.
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on Mar 23, 2014 2:09:19 GMT
Thanks Dave and I.L.S.  What a great idea to search on the Ebay for the same issues. That hadn't even crossed my mind. In searching, I found this great site on Polish stamps, the Stamp Encyclopaedia Poland. It has all sorts of information, including translations of the inscriptions on the stamps, short history of the each stamp subject, plus links to all sorts of additional information on the stamp's subject. Awesome.  Anyway, I looked at same 1945+ issues on this site and they show the same brown toning that mine do to some extent. Not all of them are as dark, but it looks like they are heading that way. I'll have to agree with I.L.S, I think both the stamps and album page contributed to the toning. Polish stamps from this time period have the tendency to tone and the album paper accelerated the process. |
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Philatarium
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Post by Philatarium on Mar 23, 2014 5:40:41 GMT
Hi, Jen -- Just in case you're unfamiliar with it, the Bidstart stamp site can search and sort by catalog number. Unfortunately, it brings in SG and Michel numbers too, but it can get you pretty close, especially since most people list with the Scott numbers. It gets even better if you use a narrow cat number range to search for, but I used Scott 350-475, just to get a sample for that time period. Here's the search: www.bidstart.com/search_results.php?keywords=Poland+350-475&category=1&advsrc=restricted&orderType=ASC&orderField=sortnumber&limit=200(Over time, I've picked up older collections on Minkus, Harris & Scott, and it seems like only Scott used a higher-quality paper, although that's based on my limited experience.) -- Dave |
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rogo
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Post by rogo on Mar 23, 2014 20:36:26 GMT
Poland was devastated by WWII, it took a long time to get standards up. Then becoming a Soviet satellite, I'm not too sure those standards were brought up all that high. Very few stamps and covers are in good shape from that era.
There is an archival mist that is sold, I've seen it at Amos and you can probably find it at Subway stamps, I've never used it, I don't think it's worth it on cheap stamps and am not too sure about using it on expensive items.
I don't suggest this by any means for anybody.... I soak all my acid eaten stamps in distilled water and baking soda. The soda brings the pH scale to about 9, slightly alkaline.... it helps but nothing will restore the paper. On more expensive stamps that are acid damaged I will layer in dry baking soda for a couple of weeks, again it helps but stamps are still damaged.
One of my mentors would bleach stamps, he had a extensive knowledge of paper, inks and printing methods, as well a good understanding of chemistry. He was good at it and made sure it was known his stamps were "restored".
We can only retard the degradation.... hopefully someone started early on the stamp you have.
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on Mar 24, 2014 0:38:23 GMT
Just in case you're unfamiliar with it, the Bidstart stamp site can search and sort by catalog number. Dave, thanks for the link to BidStart. I wasn't familiar with that site. Nice that you can search by a range of catalog numbers. I looked at the images returned from your search and the amount of toning on the issues is quite variable. |
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on Mar 24, 2014 1:12:28 GMT
I don't suggest this by any means for anybody.... I soak all my acid eaten stamps in distilled water and baking soda. The soda brings the pH scale to about 9, slightly alkaline.... it helps but nothing will restore the paper. On more expensive stamps that are acid damaged I will layer in dry baking soda for a couple of weeks, again it helps but stamps are still damaged. Interesting idea on using baking soda to get the pH back up on acid eaten stamps. Have you been doing this long enough to know if it is making a difference in the stamps you treat? |
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rogo
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Post by rogo on Mar 24, 2014 3:12:41 GMT
I don't suggest this by any means for anybody.... I soak all my acid eaten stamps in distilled water and baking soda. The soda brings the pH scale to about 9, slightly alkaline.... it helps but nothing will restore the paper. On more expensive stamps that are acid damaged I will layer in dry baking soda for a couple of weeks, again it helps but stamps are still damaged. Interesting idea on using baking soda to get the pH back up on acid eaten stamps. Have you been doing this long enough to know if it is making a difference in the stamps you treat? I really only been keeping track for about 5 years with good success. Most stamps I will toss out. I tried soda soaking because one album I was trying to save, had some (at one time) beautiful stamps that were killing me to throw away. Many years ago I was shown how to "restore" stamps, in which I still disagree with as a whole. Some of the old timers used some pretty nasty chemicals, but in skilled hands it was hard to tell how bad the stamps had been.
soaking stamps in plain water will help somewhat, the baking soda helps much more.
AND do not soak good stamps with the damaged stamps.....
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Zuzu
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Post by Zuzu on Mar 24, 2014 14:38:23 GMT
A note to anyone with damaged stamps: please consider donating to the FRCS Holocaust Stamp Project. Contact information is at the bottom of the linked page. |
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rogo
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Post by rogo on Mar 25, 2014 4:21:52 GMT
A note to anyone with damaged stamps: please consider donating to the FRCS Holocaust Stamp Project. Contact information is at the bottom of the linked page. I will donate stamps.... I won't donate trash... if stamps are so far gone or have stains from adhesives (scotch tape), they will affect others from contact. |
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Post by Perfs14 on Mar 26, 2014 18:01:03 GMT
You might like to read my blog (a little neglected lately) on Foxing (toning) on stamps etc... link
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rogo
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Post by rogo on Mar 28, 2014 23:36:28 GMT
You might like to read my blog (a little neglected lately) on Foxing (toning) on stamps etc... link
Great job blogging....... excellent article on fungi.
I believe all foxing is a fungi but not all toning is due to a fungus. There's a lot of chemistry going on with paper, gum, and inks in the presence of air, the elements that make up air, moisture, etc.... The unfortunate part of stamps (and safekeeping) is they are all, for the most part, are made up of organic components.... the metals and minerals in the inks are also at the mercy of environment.
Unlike bacteria, which is more pH sensitive, fungi can adapt and will thrive, no matter the environment.
One wives tale.... dip foxed stamps in boiling milk, never tried it but read about it twice in my life.
The TV program Modern Marvels is one of my favorite...... they did a whole show on fungus....
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on Mar 29, 2014 1:59:19 GMT
Perfs 14, I'd like to second rogo's compliment on your blog post. Very nice blog post. Although it made me sort of wary of could actually be growing on all these old stamps I have. Did you ever take the analysis any further?
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Post by Perfs14 on Mar 29, 2014 18:06:07 GMT
You might like to read my blog (a little neglected lately) on Foxing (toning) on stamps etc... link
Great job blogging....... excellent article on fungi.
I believe all foxing is a fungi but not all toning is due to a fungus. There's a lot of chemistry going on with paper, gum, and inks in the presence of air, the elements that make up air, moisture, etc.... The unfortunate part of stamps (and safekeeping) is they are all, for the most part, are made up of organic components.... the metals and minerals in the inks are also at the mercy of environment.
Unlike bacteria, which is more pH sensitive, fungi can adapt and will thrive, no matter the environment.
One wives tale.... dip foxed stamps in boiling milk, never tried it but read about it twice in my life.
The TV program Modern Marvels is one of my favorite...... they did a whole show on fungus....
You are absolutely right that toning involves a lot of chemistry. We all know that acid paper has an effect and the presence of some heavy metal ions may also be important. I was focusing on the fungal infestation as that is the one most likely to be transmitted from stamp to stamp and perhaps to collector. |
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Post by Perfs14 on Mar 29, 2014 18:12:04 GMT
Perfs 14, I'd like to second rogo's compliment on your blog post. Very nice blog post. Although it made me sort of wary of could actually be growing on all these old stamps I have. Did you ever take the analysis any further? Thank you Jen B, unfortunately I could not follow it up due to a lack of funds. Those few electonmicrographs where done at no cost to me as the researcher was also interested, but he needed a grant for further research and I was unable to supply/obtain one. Also, altough, I am science trained I am not a mycologist...if anyone knows one with a student looking for a potentially rewarding research project... |
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rogo
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Post by rogo on Mar 29, 2014 19:19:35 GMT
Perfs 14, I'd like to second rogo's compliment on your blog post. Very nice blog post. Although it made me sort of wary of could actually be growing on all these old stamps I have. Did you ever take the analysis any further? Thank you Jen B, unfortunately I could not follow it up due to a lack of funds. Those few electonmicrographs where done at no cost to me as the researcher was also interested, but he needed a grant for further research and I was unable to supply/obtain one. Also, altough, I am science trained I am not a mycologist...if anyone knows one with a student looking for a potentially rewarding research project... How close are you to community college? They be interested enough in your background and project to date, they may create a course with you as instructor....... it's not difficult to get a teaching certificate (in Michigan) for something such as this...... You may be able to get paid while you play.... and your students may do most of the work for you..... win, win, win |
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Post by Perfs14 on Mar 30, 2014 4:25:31 GMT
I live in australia, I am not sure we have 'community colleges' but i did send a letter or two to a couple of Microbiology departments at our local Universities ... no answer; maybe they got lost in the mail...
lol
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rogo
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Post by rogo on Mar 31, 2014 7:03:53 GMT
I live in australia, I am not sure we have 'community colleges' but i did send a letter or two to a couple of Microbiology departments at our local Universities ... no answer; maybe they got lost in the mail... lol sent letter to the wrong department.... they will see you as a threat  , eating into their budget. Better to go over their heads to administration and work your way in undetected  ........until it's too late.............
Seriously, if you sent a couple of inquiries, sounds like you mean business.......I wish you a lot of luck
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I.L.S.
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Post by I.L.S. on Apr 2, 2014 21:23:26 GMT
You might like to read my blog (a little neglected lately) on Foxing (toning) on stamps etc... link
Great job blogging....... excellent article on fungi.
I believe all foxing is a fungi but not all toning is due to a fungus. There's a lot of chemistry going on with paper, gum, and inks in the presence of air, the elements that make up air, moisture, etc.... The unfortunate part of stamps (and safekeeping) is they are all, for the most part, are made up of organic components.... the metals and minerals in the inks are also at the mercy of environment.
Unlike bacteria, which is more pH sensitive, fungi can adapt and will thrive, no matter the environment.
One wives tale.... dip foxed stamps in boiling milk, never tried it but read about it twice in my life.
The TV program Modern Marvels is one of my favorite...... they did a whole show on fungus....
Have I ever mentioned that I'm a Mycologist? It could be a fungus really have to see it in hand to tell though but usually the small is a good giveaway. becareful though as spores are bad for your lungs so just don't be huffing on it...lol |
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Post by Perfs14 on Apr 3, 2014 0:13:40 GMT
Great job blogging....... excellent article on fungi.
I believe all foxing is a fungi but not all toning is due to a fungus. There's a lot of chemistry going on with paper, gum, and inks in the presence of air, the elements that make up air, moisture, etc.... The unfortunate part of stamps (and safekeeping) is they are all, for the most part, are made up of organic components.... the metals and minerals in the inks are also at the mercy of environment.
Unlike bacteria, which is more pH sensitive, fungi can adapt and will thrive, no matter the environment.
One wives tale.... dip foxed stamps in boiling milk, never tried it but read about it twice in my life.
The TV program Modern Marvels is one of my favorite...... they did a whole show on fungus....
Have I ever mentioned that I'm a Mycologist? It could be a fungus really have to see it in hand to tell though but usually the small is a good giveaway. becareful though as spores are bad for your lungs so just don't be huffing on it...lol There are some electronmicrographs as part of my blog on toning, I would be interested on your thoughts on what they show. |
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I.L.S.
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Post by I.L.S. on Apr 3, 2014 8:19:42 GMT
Sure Perfs but after having a look and a read I don't really know what to add? It's pretty thorough. that enhanced images on the electron microscope image appear to be germinating spores with hyphea starting what they called tendrils. Hard to say really?
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 12, 2016 5:10:38 GMT
see thestampforum.boards.net/post/39259thestampforum.boards.net/post/39203Results (so far) of the Chlorine cleaning Method 20160212 1300hrs 1. 2 Scot stamps, toning (rust) evidenced. 1 without gum, one with. 2. Coles Supermarket "Black and Gold" (Cheapest Household Bleach) 3. In a oven proof Pyrex bowl (small) 1 cap of Bleach, 10 caps of tepid water. 4. Using tongs dropped the stamps in the mixture (Put stop watch on for 60 seconds) 5. Removed the stamps after 60 seconds and placed in another dish of tepid plain water. 6. Dried between 2 clean tea towels, scanned whilst damp Results J Chalmers stamp, all rusting disappeared. SCOTEX selvedge rust removed completely, lost all gum, in blue designs some remaining marks where the rust was evident remain Shall rescan when stamps are dry. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 12, 2016 23:54:40 GMT
Results of the 60 second Chlorine cleaning rust method. (1 part household bleach, 10 parts tepid water, 60 seconds dip then soak/rinse in tepid clean water) Make up you own mind. Long term effect unknown. *.gif courtesy of the free gif maker online gifmaker.me/ |
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Post by jkjblue on Feb 13, 2016 0:09:22 GMT
Very interesting Rod.
The bleach improve the toning- or was it foxing ? - and to my eyes it also brightened the stamp to a different shade.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 13, 2016 0:26:29 GMT
Very interesting Rod. The bleach improve the toning- or was it foxing ? - and to my eyes it also brightened the stamp to a different shade. A Guess Jim. Colour remains exactly the same, perhaps the tiniest difference due to dirt, dust or scum removal. Foxing / rust / tropical toning darkens the visual, example, look at a mint stamp, and alongside look at a heavily cancelled stamp of the same issue, you would swear the stamp colour is a different shade, the Postmark alters ones visual of the shade. I think that is what has happened here, but still open to opinion. (Perhaps the bleach whitened the white?) Curiosity: This label was gummed, note how the tension of the gum has been released, on its (the gum) removal, the roulette holes grew wider. |
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lisag
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Post by lisag on Feb 13, 2016 13:26:28 GMT
I mentioned this in another thread - many people have had good results using ammonia for the removal of foxing and/or toning. The thing with ammonia is that in those big jugs of ammonia, you want the gas - ammonia off-gases rapidly. So many people have tried putting some ammonia in a saucer, placing a stamp in it and swishing it around for 10-30 seconds with good results. After that period of time, the ammonia is just about gone or gone, so there's no lasting effect on the stamp. It's always best to try this on cheap stamps, but it does seem to work. There's also the possibility that the gum will remain if you're very careful. When I finally get around to trying this, I'll post my own results here. And always use in a well ventilated area! No use passing out when you're stamping!  |
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Jen B
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Post by Jen B on Feb 14, 2016 2:30:01 GMT
rod222 Looks like your bleaching experiment did a good job in removing the foxing. But do you think it caused that white line between "April" and "1962" in the bleached stamp? Or is that from the scanner?
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BC
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Post by BC on Feb 14, 2016 3:44:07 GMT
Very interesting results Rod. Time now to travel back to the Austrian Empire for some experiments!  |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 14, 2016 3:55:36 GMT
rod222 Looks like your bleaching experiment did a good job in removing the foxing. But do you think it caused that white line between "April" and "1962" in the bleached stamp? Or is that from the scanner? Guess: No Jen, but I did notice that. The paper (as you may expect on a cinderella) is quite poor, and the label went soggy immediately I recall having a problem picking them out of the bowl, with the long pointy tongs, I reckon they may have been the culprit. |
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, eating into their budget. Better to go over their heads to administration and work your way in undetected 
........until it's too late.............
