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Post by jamesw on Jun 16, 2014 1:46:34 GMT
Found these two in a box from an estate auction today. A thread on SCF tells me these are Russian Army of the North. The letters OKCA mean 'Special Corps, Army of the North' Judging from that thread I believe the stamp on the left is authentic while the other is a forgery. |
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jun 16, 2014 5:25:16 GMT
Found these two in a box from an estate auction today. A thread on SCF tells me these are Russian Army of the North. The letters OKCA mean 'Special Corps, Army of the North' Judging from that thread I believe the stamp on the left is authentic while the other is a forgery. Scott catalogue. I would defer to our learned colleague, Vasia, for any specifics. PS. More examples of a Thematic from iconography from our distant past. The Etruscan symbol of power, the Fasces, (bundle of rods and an axe) from which modern fascism evolved.  |
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khj
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Post by khj on Jun 16, 2014 6:39:11 GMT
That appears correct. Right is definitely a known forgery. Left looks genuine.
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tomiseksj
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What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Dec 13, 2015 17:48:40 GMT
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 14, 2015 4:09:08 GMT
Digging out my OKCA issues, see if I have any helpful for falshung. Here is some helpful stuff, from "The Stamp Forum" members Marcbkk gives us  BC (Our Map man)  Some from Vasia  |
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BC
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What I collect: Worldwide USED up to the 1960's, later years from countries that came into existence after then, like Anguilla, Tuvalu and Transnistria.
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Post by BC on Feb 13, 2016 18:50:04 GMT
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Feb 14, 2016 0:47:35 GMT
B, do you have the Barefoot Russian cancel material, and if so, did you find these in there?
Inquiring minds want to know...
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BC
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What I collect: Worldwide USED up to the 1960's, later years from countries that came into existence after then, like Anguilla, Tuvalu and Transnistria.
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Post by BC on Feb 14, 2016 2:01:41 GMT
C, I don't have those catalogs, but the double large circle cancel was explained by our friend Vasia in another forum:
He was not referring to these blocks, but the cancel is the same. As for the ovals, I have no idea, though they are probably railway cancels, perhaps the Narva-Petrograd line mentioned above. I am sure Vasia or someone else will chime in.
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BC
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What I collect: Worldwide USED up to the 1960's, later years from countries that came into existence after then, like Anguilla, Tuvalu and Transnistria.
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Post by BC on Feb 14, 2016 19:52:07 GMT
After reading through some past issues of ROSSICA, it appears the oval cancel may have been used by the "Postal Telegraph Field Office" of the Northwest Army. It is still open for debate on whether it is genuine, forged, or fake. See these articles; everything you wanted to know about the Russian Army of the North or Northwest. No. 55, Page 26 (1958) ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00020235/00026/28jNo. 123, Page 67 (1994) ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00020235/00067/70jNo. 124, Page 62 (1995) ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00020235/00064/64j |
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BC
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Post by BC on Feb 25, 2016 2:54:58 GMT
Army of the NorthFalschung, are you sure it is not the opposite? Of the dozen or so genuine I have, including used, almost all are on the thin pelure paper. That includes the used block shown here: Correction - see below. thestampforum.boards.net/post/39320
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 25, 2016 3:13:50 GMT
Brian, pelure paper, in my experience, is extremely thin, (like the fairytale "The Emperor's new clothes" )  I'd liken it to glassine cigarette paper, it amazes me they even printed stamps on it. To me the scans do not look like pelure, hope I am wrong though. |
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BC
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Post by BC on Feb 25, 2016 3:49:44 GMT
Rod, the 50k only exists on pelure (extra thin). My 15k and 50k in my link are on the exact same paper, extra thin. The others on on much thicker wove paper. My bad, I got the 15k and 20k mixed up  |
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BC
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Post by BC on Feb 25, 2016 4:23:35 GMT
I do have the 15k on both papers. Here are scans, front and back: From Left to Right: Genuine on pelure, genuine on wove, forgery on wove Front  Back The pelure is just like Rod said. It also seems waxy. |
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 25, 2016 5:05:41 GMT
Yep! that's it. Spot on.
Not seen flat as yours, my pelure examples (not this country) always had part gum, and were crinkly.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 3, 2016 21:18:47 GMT
Falschung, thanks again for posting all of the great forgery info and resources. I have finally returned home after holiday travel and am taking a look at my previously unsorted Russia Army of the North stamps. Unfortunately, my current scanner is only capable up to 300dpi, so I have resorted to taking photos with my iPhone camera.
Here is a photo of my copies of the 5k issue.
Falschung, based on your info, the copy which looks like a possible forgery to me is the 4th one. The 1st copy is the best from a print quality point of view, but unfortunately it has a thin on the back. The 2nd copy may also be a forgery, but it is hard for me to tell.
I would be very interested in opinions from you, Falschung, or other members who have observations about this photo. Thanks!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 3, 2016 21:24:48 GMT
Here is a photo of my copies of the 10k issue of Russia Army of the North:
In general, these are better copies than my 5k stamps. The crosses all look pretty good--although the 3rd one is the most suspect as a forgery. Falschung or anyone else, what do you think about these? I am thinking of putting the 1st copy in my album.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 1:22:02 GMT
Army of the North
Gen. Yudenich had these hastily printed.
They were basically crude lithos. printed on available paper.
They "may" have had some actual postal use.
Generally the cancels are from the Moloskovitsy station that was their headquarters.
They were cancelled for collectors.
Printing stamps was a good way to raise some capital.
The forgeries are VERY crude and easily spottted.
The ID marks in the Varro book may not always be the definitive test.
Given the papers and printing, excess inking is not uncommon so the tests don't apply to every stamp
I have not seen how many were on a sheet but they obviously had many varieties
With the genuine 5's
The double circles are a good indicator
The cross being fairly even and squared
Most of all - legible writing
They should be on wove paper
Yours all appear to pass this
With the genuine 10's
The visible details in the sword hilt, double lines along the edges
The cross again & discernible words
They should be on wove paper
Yours all appear to pass
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Post by jkjblue on Dec 4, 2016 1:58:43 GMT
 My example on the right doesn't pass. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 10, 2016 18:34:28 GMT
Army of the North With the genuine 5's The double circles are a good indicator, etc. Yours all appear to pass this With the genuine 10's The visible details in the sword hilt, double lines along the edges, etc. Yours all appear to pass Many thanks again to Falschung and JKJ Blue for your responses to my posts on these Russian Army of the North issues. Very helpful! I am actually surprised that there were no forgeries there. As I have obtained many of these stamps from "penny box" searches or from buying large mixtures, I thought for sure that there would be more questionable issues there.
Now that Steve T. has helped me figure out how to get higher resolution scans using my current equipment (thanks again, Steve!), I would like to finish up what I started last weekend. So, here is a scan of my copies of Russia Army of the North 15k stamps. Based on Falschung's resource info, I think that the first two copies are clearly genuine, and the 3rd copy is clearly a forgery.
Falschung or JKJ Blue, do you agree?
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 10, 2016 18:40:40 GMT
And now, here are my 20k copies. I am thinking that the first three look genuine, and the 4th one is probably a forgery.
What does everyone think?
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 10, 2016 19:02:16 GMT
And finally, here are my 50k copies. Again, using Falschung's resources, I think that the first two copies are clearly genuine, while the last two are clearly forgeries. Other opinions?
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Post by jkjblue on Dec 17, 2016 2:58:27 GMT
Beryllum Guy asked me to comment on his "Army of the North" stamps, specifically genuine vs forgery. Beryllium Guy's examples can be found in the WW Forgeries (Falschung) thread. I don't want to add more on this sub-topic to Falschung's thread, as that thread is intended for Falschung's own postings and discussion of forgeries. [Moderator Comment: The various Army of the North forgery posts have been consolidated in this thread on the newly-created Genuine or Fake? board.] I am therefore reviving this thread, which is quite appropriate. Now, a few cautionary notes about my knowledge of the "Army of the North " issues... Not Much.  By that I mean, like many posters here, I am essentially a 1840-1940 WW collector- a generalist, and by no means a specialist, nor a specialist in forgeries - although I do sometimes like to see what I can find out about them. Frankly, Falschung- who really likes forgeries, and has a specialist's library in many areas to check into forgeries, is the man.  So, this is what I know about the Army of the North forgeries, as is posted on my Russia blog...  Russia Army of the North
1919 Scott 3 15k yellow: Genuine vs ForgeryThe 15k yellow... Genuine: The lower part of "C" and "A" are touching; The octagon around OKCA is wide and short. Forgery: The lower part of "C" and "A" do not touch; The octagon around OKCA is symmetrical. Beryllium Guy- the three stamps you posted of the 15k yellow - you are right, the third stamp (one on the right) is a forgery. Russia Army of the North
1919 Scott 5 50k green: Genuine vs Forgery50k green... Genuine: The small ornaments midway along the inner framelines on each side are circular with a dot in the center; there are small open circles on either side of OKCA. Forgery: The small ornaments midway along the inner framelines on each side are solid circles; there are small solid circles on either side of OKCA. Beryllium Guy - I'll let you make your own determination about your examples - your judgement should be as good as mine and vice- versa. |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 17, 2016 6:31:19 GMT
Thanks again, Blue, for responding to my posts. I think that we are in agreement then. In the end, I didn't have nearly as many forgeries of these issues as I originally thought I might. Thanks for your comments!
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stainlessb
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What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 21, 2019 15:33:37 GMT
Beryllum Guy asked me to comment on his "Army of the North" stamps, specifically genuine vs forgery. Beryllium Guy's examples can be found in the WW Forgeries (Falschung) thread. I don't want to add more on this sub-topic to Falschung's thread, as that thread is intended for Falschung's own postings and discussion of forgeries. [Moderator Comment: The various Army of the North forgery posts have been consolidated in this thread on the newly-created Genuine or Fake? board.] I am therefore reviving this thread, which is quite appropriate. Now, a few cautionary notes about my knowledge of the "Army of the North " issues... Not Much. By that I mean, like many posters here, I am essentially a 1840-1940 WW collector- a generalist, and by no means a specialist, nor a specialist in forgeries - although I do sometimes like to see what I can find out about them. Frankly, Falschung- who really likes forgeries, and has a specialist's library in many areas to check into forgeries, is the man. So, this is what I know about the Army of the North forgeries, as is posted on my Russia blog... Russia Army of the North
1919 Scott 3 15k yellow: Genuine vs ForgeryThe 15k yellow... Genuine: The lower part of "C" and "A" are touching; The octagon around OKCA is wide and short. Forgery: The lower part of "C" and "A" do not touch; The octagon around OKCA is symmetrical. Beryllium Guy- the three stamps you posted of the 15k yellow - you are right, the third stamp (one on the right) is a forgery.Russia Army of the North
1919 Scott 5 50k green: Genuine vs Forgery50k green... Genuine: The small ornaments midway along the inner framelines on each side are circular with a dot in the center; there are small open circles on either side of OKCA. Forgery: The small ornaments midway along the inner framelines on each side are solid circles; there are small solid circles on either side of OKCA. Beryllium Guy - I'll let you make your own determination about your examples - your judgement should be as good as mine and vice- versa. I asked about the identy of this elsewhere, but I know what to look for now, found this thread- and I'm reposting photo...Forgery>>>  |
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