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Post by tallanent on Feb 21, 2015 22:31:36 GMT
There are two types of plating that need to be done generally by the collector .... That done at home where reference material can be checked and That done at a stamp fair where all the books etc may not be available I will deal with the later problem and show how a stamp can be assigned to at least a group of plates by just knowing a few simple things to check First check the top corners ... Plate 1A  Plate 1B  Plate 2  Plate 2 The illustrations above show typical stars from plates 1a, 1b and 2 As can be seen, there are missing and also elongated rays See something like this and you have a group of three possible plates  See this in the top right corner and we have just plate 11 Break in the top frame line missing 7 o'clock ray The bottom of the stamp ... The O flaw is a mark between the O and N of ONE at the base of the stamp This only happens on plates 7, 8, 9 and 10 If this flaw is there then we have a group of four possible plates The base line ... The bulge on the base line is most common on plate 5 but also shows on some impressions from plate 6 Whats left ?If none of these marks are visible, then you have plates 3 and 4 left However, there are also some stamps in the groups above that do not show the specific marks and these would also be possibles In short, it narrows the options down and at least gives you a chance to make a call based on what the seller may be offering a stamp as ... you can at least ask the right questions and get verification Short, simple and sweet and works in a great many cases The more you look at and practice, the better you get and can often make a good call in most cases Hope this helps some .... Allan |
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Feb 21, 2015 23:28:06 GMT
That right there is some nice info. Thanks.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 22, 2015 13:35:58 GMT
Fabulous Post Allan !
We are fortunate to have you, and to explain this material.
Very rarely seen on stamp forums.
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Post by irishjack on Feb 22, 2015 21:57:09 GMT
Well with that excellent tutorial I went to work last night.
The first thing that popped to me was the top left star very little frame line. I took a look at the plates for RC philatelics.org/~allan/shrop/blacks/page1.html Plate 3 was my gut feeling so off I went looking for more images of RC Plate 3. I took a image from the Nissen plate guide and compared my stamp to their example's. The one that seemed closes to mine was Plate 3.
I a very visual type of guy so I put my stamp in the center and surrounded it with the posable match
Plate 3 is my opinion
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Post by tallanent on Feb 22, 2015 22:19:01 GMT
Totally agree with plate 3  Apart from the possitions of the check letters which confirm this .... we also have
Very weak top line to top left corner square
Weak lower part frame line to top right corner square
Weakness on the right side line
These all matched on the overlay to show the points
Allan
PS .... a visual compare is still always a good option given the amount of time that it takes to scan an items.
The human eye is by far the best tool we have for this type of study
Allan |
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cjd
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Post by cjd on Feb 23, 2015 0:49:06 GMT
Well done Jack. And more to the point, well done Allan.
It is not uncommon to see a plating discussion online go something like:
"What plate?"
-"Plate 4"
"Why?"
-"I couldn't possibly explain it...trust me, peon."
So much better to teach a man to fish...
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 23, 2015 14:01:05 GMT
I gotta tell you, I love this stuff  Bravo Jack, you nailed it! It is human being's greatest triumph, the exchange of information and ideas. It is after all, how we developed speech. Being British myself, we owe a huge debt to Tynsdale, who translated the Bible from Latin, and by doing so, gave birth to written English word for the lower classes to understand, learn and pass on. |
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Post by tallanent on Feb 23, 2015 17:51:39 GMT
I am sorting through some items that I brought from a collector who I have dealt with for many years who will let me see items he has duplicated or upgraded. This is generally done on a 50 / 50 split .... cash and credit and we both generally get something we can feel happy with The item I just came across I sold to him a number of years back and they are the Spiro forgeries of the VR official Penny Black It was the condition that alerted me to these items and a quick check of my site under the sold lots revealed what they were sold for .... £25  He has obviously given both a bath, as they no longer show the paper with lines on the rear The original sale can be seen here .... philatelicweb.com/shop/search3.phpRecorded here for reference just so that people know what they are looking at should one turn up Allan |
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Post by tallanent on Feb 25, 2015 16:49:48 GMT
Another item being added to stock cards that I again thought worth recording here ....   At first glance, and presented as shown above a nice First Day cover from Lombard Street, London to Dundee
Sent 6 May 1840 - arrived 8 May 1940
There are however some issues .....
The cover is a reprint of a cover in the Fleetwood National First Day Cover Museum, Cheyenne, Wyoming
A real Penny Black has been placed on the front, but this is from Plate 6 which was not avaliable on the first day of use
A nice little curio item that will be priced simply on the basis of a plate 6 black (as illustrated above) and will no doubt provide a nice talking point at the stall
Regards .. Allan
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Post by irishjack on Feb 25, 2015 22:19:27 GMT
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Post by irishjack on Feb 25, 2015 22:30:27 GMT
Allen's copy the stamp is upside-down. Someone found a penny black that they could match up the MX to. Nice conversation piece. |
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Post by tallanent on Feb 25, 2015 22:48:43 GMT
The stamp on the cover in the folio is printed onto the front.
For reference, if anyone is after these, the internal part, the actual letter is also reproduced ....
This really is quite a nice little item
The $99.99 price tag is about £65 GB at the time of writting ...
As Jack says, someone has found a stamp to match the red maltesse cross, but this was obviously only possible by placing the stamp inverted on the cover.
The price of £65 is around the right mark for a nice single stamp, which is included in this folio, so it would appear to be a fair priced item
These items really do get conversations going, especially when seen 'in the flesh'
Allan
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Post by irishjack on Dec 2, 2015 2:13:59 GMT
I will be tackling plating this over the weekend
I trying to match black with reds, something to keep my mind busy over the winter.
Looks like a bit of doubling on the H A quick guess its plate 5.
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Post by tallanent on Feb 6, 2016 18:15:18 GMT
Just a little update that I thought worth sharing here .... If anyone uses the "Nissen reconstructions of the One Penny Black" which were offered for sale some time ago by Spink auctions and are shown on their site at www.spink.com/nissen-reconstructions.aspx then please be aware that there are errors in the material presented .... AA plate 2 is plate 1B CC plate 1A is plate 1B FI plate 1A is plate 1B FJ plate 4 is plate 2 GL plate 6 is plate 3 HA plate 4 is plate 6 HH plate 3 is plate 7 HJ plate 1A is plate 1B IG plate 1A is plate 2 IG plate 2 is plate 7 JH plate 8 is plate 9 MD plate 5 is plate 8 OA plate 1B is plate 2 OF plate 1B is plate 2 PF plate 1A is plate 1B PH plate 2 is plate 1B QF plate 1A is plate 2 QF plate 4 is plate 6 QG plate 6 is plate 1B RE plate 3 is plate 6 RH plate 1B is plate 1A SF plate 7 is plate 4 SH plate 11 is plate 3 TA plate 4 is plate 6 TL plate 1A is plate 1B Caution is advised when checking these check letter combinations .... |
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zipper
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Post by zipper on Feb 7, 2016 0:14:20 GMT
Thanks, Allan.
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reena
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Post by reena on Feb 7, 2016 0:22:07 GMT
Wow, thank you for posting all this information. So much to learn.
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lisag
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Post by lisag on Feb 7, 2016 14:26:46 GMT
I think I have a plate 1b. Is that correct?  |
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Post by tallanent on Feb 7, 2016 23:09:30 GMT
I have straightened your image and inserted it between plates 1B and 3 in the image below ...  The slope of the cross bar on the letter H is not right and the placement of the letter B is too high on your stamp Plate 3 as illustrated is a match down to the weakness of the top of the right frame line and the weakness of the base of the check letter B |
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lisag
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It is during our darkest moments that we must focus to see the light. - Aristotle Onassis
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Post by lisag on Feb 7, 2016 23:32:23 GMT
Thank you! It's a pleasure to have so many experts around.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 7, 2016 23:42:49 GMT
Thank you! It's a pleasure to have so many experts around. I agree, no longer are penny blacks "The Great mystery" beginning to see the light. Thanks a bunch, tallanent |
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reena
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Post by reena on Feb 8, 2016 1:46:45 GMT
Question time: All this information is just wonderful and I truly appreciate you sharing it. Does it only apply to black, or does it also apply to reds, too?
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zipper
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What I collect: Classic GB, QV, France Ceres/Napoleon, Classic U.S., Cinderella & Poster Stamps
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Post by zipper on Feb 8, 2016 1:56:49 GMT
What about the 2P Blues?
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Post by tallanent on Feb 8, 2016 15:16:01 GMT
Question time: All this information is just wonderful and I truly appreciate you sharing it. Does it only apply to black, or does it also apply to reds, too? The general information also relates to the early Penny reds that were printed from the same plates used for the Penny Blacks From plate 12 onward things get more complex |
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Post by tallanent on Feb 8, 2016 15:17:13 GMT
The Two Pence Blues issues are in general fairly easy to sort. I could put the details together if required |
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Post by tallanent on Apr 12, 2018 18:56:38 GMT
Just found this thread again and saw that the pictures in the first post were all missing .... this has now been corrected so the information is again in place for use
Allan
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2018 21:34:01 GMT
Just a little update that I thought worth sharing here .... If anyone uses the "Nissen reconstructions of the One Penny Black" which were offered for sale some time ago by Spink auctions and are shown on their site at www.spink.com/nissen-reconstructions.aspx then please be aware that there are errors in the material presented .... www.spink.com/private-treaty/nissen-reconstructionsAA plate 2 is plate 1B CC plate 1A is plate 1B FI plate 1A is plate 1B FJ plate 4 is plate 2 GL plate 6 is plate 3 HA plate 4 is plate 6 HH plate 3 is plate 7 HJ plate 1A is plate 1B IG plate 1A is plate 2 IG plate 2 is plate 7 JH plate 8 is plate 9 MD plate 5 is plate 8 OA plate 1B is plate 2 OF plate 1B is plate 2 PF plate 1A is plate 1B PH plate 2 is plate 1B QF plate 1A is plate 2 QF plate 4 is plate 6 QG plate 6 is plate 1B RE plate 3 is plate 6 RH plate 1B is plate 1A SF plate 7 is plate 4 SH plate 11 is plate 3 TA plate 4 is plate 6 TL plate 1A is plate 1B Questions 1 Where do the errors originate from - Spink or Cripps? 2 In for example, comparing "AA plate 2 is plate 1B", the similarities are noticeable. I take it that in this case and similarly in the others that plate 2 is incorrect but plate 1B is correct? 3 Is there a location/link where the correct plate of the one in error can be found? |
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Post by tallanent on Apr 12, 2018 21:50:35 GMT
to the questions above .... 1 ... I think they are from Cripps .... 2 ... Yes - on some lettering's the impressions are very alike .... difficult to tell apart but not impossible 3 ... There is a stamp wiki that has images - but I have not checked through them --- the link to the site is here just change the check letters in the address bar to get the other impressions |
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Jun 21, 2019 19:01:41 GMT
Very interesting and informative tread. I have today received 3 One Penny Black. Two single and one on letter. (paid ca $120) The one on the letter should be from plate 6 and the two single should be from plate 8. Front and back.     |
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Jun 21, 2019 19:03:00 GMT
The letter  The innside (and back)  |
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tobben63
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Post by tobben63 on Jun 21, 2019 19:09:11 GMT
The stamp on the letter  |
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