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Post by hs2oca on Feb 15, 2016 4:46:52 GMT
Hi everyone. I picked up my stamp collecting hobby last year after about 35 years of neglect. I was disappointed to find a large number of CTOs in my worldwide collection. I *was* going to sell them, but now I wonder if it's worth the effort. I mean, is there a market for them? What would you do with Canceled to Order stamps? They come from, Sharjah, Fujiera, Ras-al-Khaima, Umm al Qiwain, Burundi, Ajman, Manama, Panama, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Germany DDR, and, I suspect I have some from Czechoslovakia and USSR still in my collection. I have a used Canada collection I'm focusing on at the moment. I'm wanting to get rid of the CTOs and other worldwide stamps. How to best do it?
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scb
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Post by scb on Feb 15, 2016 5:28:49 GMT
In short, yes - there's a market for them (especially outside North America).
-k-
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 15, 2016 11:34:16 GMT
Good question. Reality bites. I just place 57 (1965) Romania on auction here for $5 +$3 shipping, I went onto my local ebay, when collector listed 6 lots including 80 mixed Romania stamps for $1.99 + $1 ship (Aust) This is basically give-away, however, current international postage rates, make it even less worthwhile. Great for new the collector, Romanian mid years say 1965-1985 one should be able to collect for $4 per year but a lot of the CTO's are also "short sets" and missing the higher values. I collect all the countries you mention, but postage rates make it unrealistic. If you can fill a "Chinese" stock book, with CTO's (which may take hours) you'll get $5 -$8 at club auctions. A Colleague "Aussie Al" sent me a box of stamps a few years ago, measuring a cubic foot, crammed with stamps Free, I just paid the postage (Circa $28) that's about the best we can do. Keep an eye on ebay, I have seen Burundi sets go in excess of $30 and certain "Trucial States" souvenir sheets go for surprising amounts. but the main stream hinged, CTO's are going to be difficult to shift. Hope I am wrong
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scb
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Post by scb on Feb 15, 2016 12:36:07 GMT
@rod... Personally I use dealer prices for stamp packages as a 'yard stick' for random mixtures. A package of 1000 Romanian stamps is priced for 68€ whereas much smaller lot of 500 stamps goes for 7.25€, and 100 different ones selling for mere 50 cents. A package of 50 diff from Burundi is priced for 3€, and 200 diff ones goes all the way to 11€. Etc. Of course the contents of these are mostly 'short sets' etc. But so are most 'collections/lots' sold elsewhere too Dealer prices such as above define the 'baseline' that any smart buyer/seller should keep their eyes on IMHO. At least I wouldn't pay more on eBay/Delcampe/whatever for a similar mixture (and honestly speaking, I would expect the price to be at least quarter less because dealer price always includes VAT, storage related overheads and dealers gross margin). But if the contents is good/exceptional (say Burundi WWF stamps, Romanian Disney stamps, print freaks/variants etc), then it's entirely about supply and demand, and it can swing either way. The most important part is to remember that these days CTO nor Eastern-block country nor Sand dune are not 'stopwords'. They all got at least some collectors (like yours truly) out there; there are even specialized study groups for stuff that was pariah 20-30 years ago. So in the end it comes down to knowing what you have and pricing it properly. Just my 5 cents worth -k-
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bobby1948
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What I collect: WW to 1945; US mnh 1922-1990; US used and unused to 1922
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Post by bobby1948 on Feb 15, 2016 14:36:32 GMT
CTOs are as collectible as anything else. My collection cuts off at 1945, but I still have many CTOs (Liberia, Labuan, North Borneo, etc.). Frankly, I am not into collecting for investment, just to gather as many different stamps as I can before I kick the bucket. And CTOs mean I can afford many stamps which would otherwise be out of my reach.
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Post by hs2oca on Feb 15, 2016 16:24:57 GMT
Thanks for your replies everyone. I'll check ebay and Scott's then to see what value, if any, they hold. Maybe set up an approval book or two for sale. We do have a local stamp club I could sell at as well.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 15, 2016 22:04:36 GMT
CTOs are as collectible as anything else. My collection cuts off at 1945, but I still have many CTOs (Liberia, Labuan, North Borneo, etc.). Frankly, I am not into collecting for investment, just to gather as many different stamps as I can before I kick the bucket. And CTOs mean I can afford many stamps which would otherwise be out of my reach. Agreed, I will replace them if a mint, or genuinely cancelled stamp arrives, but otherwise I have no issue with them. Unfortunately, I think they seem to tarnish some countries, Romania in particular, which is a fabulous challenge to attempt to complete. Early Australian CTO's go for huge prices, so it comes down to scarcity, and Romania printed huge quantities, some with gum, that to date, I have never found a solvent.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Feb 15, 2016 22:16:00 GMT
scb Good points. In 1976, I could purchase, from a dealer, 20,000 different stamps for $475 in Australia, (which explains, in part, dealers face the same problem, shifting the more common issues) what a great kick-start for a newbie collector no doubt full of CTO and "short sets" which are the biggest problem. I guess the benchmark now for Australia, in a "swap" scenario, or "giveaway" is 400 Romania for postage / shipping of $2.75 to North America Typical Romania is 10 stamps to the gramme, take off +/- 20 grammes for packaging and that's what stamp numbers may fit under the 50 gramme limit. Or..........1 Kg Seamail (2-3months delivery ) $20 (insurance for loss/damage of $100) add $10
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Doe
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Post by Doe on Feb 16, 2016 14:23:29 GMT
Hi everyone. I picked up my stamp collecting hobby last year after about 35 years of neglect. I was disappointed to find a large number of CTOs in my worldwide collection. I *was* going to sell them, but now I wonder if it's worth the effort. I mean, is there a market for them? What would you do with Canceled to Order stamps? They come from, Sharjah, Fujiera, Ras-al-Khaima, Umm al Qiwain, Burundi, Ajman, Manama, Panama, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Germany DDR, and, I suspect I have some from Czechoslovakia and USSR still in my collection. I have a used Canada collection I'm focusing on at the moment. I'm wanting to get rid of the CTOs and other worldwide stamps. How to best do it? Myself, I would group them topically and list them that way. When I was pursuing Airships on stamps, a lot of what dealers sent to me was cto. I do not mind ctos in my topical collections. No one around me worries about that either for their topical collections.
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madbaker
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What I collect: (Mark) General worldwide collector (to 1975 or so) with a soft spot for Sweden and the rest of Scandinavia.
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Post by madbaker on Feb 16, 2016 15:26:10 GMT
I don't have a problem with CTO's in my collection. But I will reject some based on an inconsistent, unreasonable and highly personal set of criteria. Eastern European countries like Poland, Romania, Hungary, and USSR issued a lot of stamps and most are readily available as CTO. I keep them if there is a connection to the country of issue. Most often they do although I have to think hard about the large stickers with paintings on them. "Sand Dunes", Independent Africa, etc. follow the same guidelines but, alas, there are fewer issues reflecting the nation. So I'll gladly keep a Burundi stamp showing something about Burundi or Africa, but I set aside stamps commemorating Apollo 11 or the Sapporo Winter Olympics. This always goes back to "collect what you like." I wouldn't be shy about keeping CTO's. And if the "postal history" bug gets you, you can always replace them with postally used examples / covers later. Mark
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Post by carabop on Mar 7, 2016 3:22:40 GMT
I know what CTO means but how do you know the difference? I have heard it is a cancel in the corner of the stamp but a lot of stamps have a cancel in the corner. Like when I go into the post office to have my envelopes hand cancelled the clerk will just put a cancel in the corner.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Mar 7, 2016 4:01:12 GMT
I know what CTO means but how do you know the difference? I have heard it is a cancel in the corner of the stamp but a lot of stamps have a cancel in the corner. Like when I go into the post office to have my envelopes hand cancelled the clerk will just put a cancel in the corner. Your first hint will be full gum on a cancelled stamp. Other hints, clear pristine postmark rings. Several stamps bearing a similar pmk quadrant. Seek Google for that countries CTO's. Australia have CTO "on mute" in other words Pmk rings but no date in the CDS, these were used as promotional material. FYI We all can still get caught. Try to explain these
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Post by smauggie on Mar 7, 2016 18:00:39 GMT
I am by and far a classical stamp collector, so I don't run into the issue as often, but for Panama, which issued many stamps in the 1960's which were issued both mint and CTO. I collect them as mint, CTO and postally used on cover. The Scott catalog glosses over these in the assumption that they were never issued for postal use, but this is not true.
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Post by carabop on Mar 8, 2016 3:33:24 GMT
Thanks for the info rod that helps a lot.
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 8, 2016 6:29:37 GMT
The only thing I'd add to Rods excellent summary is that just about all countries out there have CTO-issues on some point in time. Some more some less. You'll learn this as you advance. And CTOs can have very different formats and appearance besides the corner-cancel and inclusion of gum (a lot of CTOs have been produced without gum to save production costs). Here's a piece of Hungary: on the left CTO, on the right postally used). Again, you'll learn different country (and era) specific CTO-practices as you advance. -k-
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khj
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Post by khj on Mar 8, 2016 8:25:54 GMT
...Try to explain these... In the 1970s, mailings from the Austrian Philatelic Center would have the stamps used for the mailing hand-canceled and placed INSIDE the shipment instead of all of them on the cover. A pretty nice way of getting undamaged canceled stamps and also not have to soak them off cover. I don't know if they still do this. Many of them came with full circular cancels. But at least one (maybe more) clerks would fold the stamps along horizontal rows and carefully hand-cancel them, creating "half-cancels". The same clerk(s) would not do this for the bottom of the very last row. So if you had stamps from the bottom row with bottom selvedge, it would have a full circular cancel. More interesting, if you had a vertical pair from the bottom two rows, the top stamp would have a semicircular cancel while the bottom stamp with the selvedge would have a full circular cancel. I think our mutual stamp friend "lithoengraving" had some examples of these. I cannot tell for certain from your pic, but I think if you looked carefully at your vertical pair, you might find it is actually a folded pair.
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Mar 8, 2016 9:06:46 GMT
khj Yowza! well done Kim. These are Lithograving's examples, I have others from other countries similar. I could see no fold in the scan hence the puzzle. Well done you.
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Post by carabop on Mar 8, 2016 23:14:18 GMT
I don't know of any USA CTOs or did I miss something?
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 12, 2016 5:24:32 GMT
I don't know of any USA CTOs or did I miss something? Let's start with USPS 'American commemorative cancellations'... Some might call these favour cancelled, but these are 100% printed CTOs (sorry for watermarked image, just grabbed this from my stamp blog) Have been issued since 1972... These are 'philatelic products' identical to CTOs except some 'clever marketing'. Even the gum is there, LOL. -k-
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Post by carabop on Mar 12, 2016 6:05:20 GMT
Thank, I have never seen those with the CTO on them scb.
So if someone has a new stamp that they just bought at the post office and ask the clerk to cancel it and they take it home with them put it in their collection and not on a envelope to be mailed, would this be a favor cancel?
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 12, 2016 9:49:27 GMT
Yep, that's a favor cancelled copy.
-k-
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Londonbus1
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What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Mar 12, 2016 12:57:54 GMT
The term 'favor cancel' is not used in some parts of the Philatelic World. In the UK it is hardly ever used to describe what scb is describing.
It is an interesting, if often annoying topic that seems to crop up with amazing regularity.
And there are many sides to the argument and many views....and let's not forget the Terminology from the different parts of our troubled world.
I used to collect First Day Covers from Great Britain. I had big eyes in those days and they were beautiful...they still are. I collected via the Philatelic Service and my covers came inside another envelope on, or just after the first day of issue. In my eyes these are Cancelled to Order pure and simple, a way of making extra funds with little or no re-sell value. If you order someone to cancel a stamp for you it is a CTO, even if it does not have gum. Many, many CTO's can be found without gum.
Some years after my first journey into First Day Covers, I purchased some kiloware from a leading British Dealer and when they arrived I immediately realized they were cut-outs from First Day Covers. I complained, sent them back and got a refund. But the dealer did question my reasoning. Later, on purpose and with only the devil in mind, I ordered from 2 other British Dealers similarly-advertised lots. One sent me cut-outs from First Day Covers, the other postally used examples. No guesses which lot I kept ?
Around the same time I visited a friend who collected GB from day 1 until the present day, Mint and Used. His collection was amazing and I asked to see some of it. I came to the Used stamps and quickly noted that a number of 'used' stamps in his collection were actually cut-outs from FDC's and I pointed this out. Then followed a discussion about the topic and slowly, slowly he began to replace those CTO's for Postally used copies.
I am not against CTO's, they are there for a reason as are all Philatelic Items and we collect what we like, how we like. But going back to the USA sheet shown previously, the term for this in many parts of the Philatelic Community is CTO, as it is to me. The cancels were not printed with the sheet as I read it, maybe that was a grammatical error....or just that Terminology popping up again.
But here is another argument. Like most collectors who buy, sell and exchange, I get a lot of covers that are not cancelled because in this day and age, for many Postal Services, it is not important [except for the twisted minds of the Royal Mail hierarchy in the UK]. So with British stamps, I take them to a Post Office when I am in the UK and complain [first of all] and then ask them to cancel the stamps for me. I usually go with quite a bunch as 95% of my mail from UK arrives clean. But are these postally used stamps ? I asked the Teller to cancel the stamps so in reality that makes them CTO's. But that same cancel might be seen on a letter which did arrive cancelled and can someone tell the difference ? No, short of taking fingerprints or a DNA examination, they cannot.
There are many different sides to the story/argument/discussion and nothing is Black and White.
But it is interesting and a lot of fun.
The only question that remains is, "What will I do with my unwanted FDC's"? On my last few [and frequent] visits to Britain I have learned that I should have waited to buy my [worthless] treasures. FDC's, even up to the end of 2014 can be found for as little as 20p each.....not much return on a cover that initially cost around £3 !!
Such is life......and stamps.
Londonbus1........FDC's anyone ?
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scb
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Post by scb on Mar 12, 2016 16:14:21 GMT
Londonbus1.... Your comments and stories are a pleasure to read as always Actually I don't know how USPS does the cancels but having visited one 'philatelic factory' last summer I witnessed a wonderful 'printing machine' where the postal worker placed a bunch of (upcoming first day) covers, and about minute later all 100 were cancelled identically. Works with sheets as well they told. Considering the cost (and varying quality) of manual labor I very much doubt USPS (or any other postal operator) would spend any time on hand cancelling except for show purposes. -k-
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Post by jimjung on Mar 12, 2016 17:54:44 GMT
In China, they don't even put stamps on letters much anymore. Everything is machine metered mail, so to speak, except maybe in smaller communities.
I have some higher value stamps that are CTO. I don't want to spend too much to fill those spaces so that's a perfect fit for me.
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Mar 12, 2016 20:33:56 GMT
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Post by carabop on Mar 13, 2016 3:15:24 GMT
I found this thread very interesting and very informative also.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 14, 2016 0:24:06 GMT
In China, they don't even put stamps on letters much anymore. .... I have some higher value stamps that are CTO. I've read somewhere before that Chinese collectors prefer CTO stamps. They then get into gum requirements for their collecting, and there is a preference for "CTO never hinged", full gum of course. Such stamps would be more desired by them than postally used copies. Horses for courses, as the Brits say .... Ryan
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Post by stokesville on Mar 29, 2016 15:13:16 GMT
Back in the nineties (1990's, not 1890's) a friend of mine went to Russia for a couple of months on business. He described to me in some of the outdoor market places that were in their infancy, stamp dealers were selling thousands of sheets of Russian CTO's for very little money. He almost bought some because of the bargain prices but was afraid of the weight and whether they would hold up with handling and the plane flight.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 29, 2016 18:33:35 GMT
Back in the nineties (1990's, not 1890's) a friend of mine went to Russia for a couple of months on business. He described to me in some of the outdoor market places that were in their infancy, stamp dealers were selling thousands of sheets of Russian CTO's for very little money. The same thing occurred with mint stamps, I think. You will often see large quantities for sale for not much money - I assume they were demonitized at the breakup of the Soviet Union so they are of no postal use any longer, and a mint stamp is now about as useful to them as a CTO stamp! I bought a fair-sized box of mint later Soviet-period stamps, almost 3 Kg of stamps in the box, for a bit less than the price you would expect to pay for a random mix of worldwide off-paper kiloware. Ryan
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