stainlessb
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qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,799
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jun 7, 2024 14:07:30 GMT
Interesting. I hadn't thought about the effect of the humidity from the steam on the ink, but something to keep in mind.
If hide glue was used (perhaps your suggestion of horse glue), an iron or hair dryer would loosen it.( dry heat). I used to repair guitars and many have the necks and fretboards attached using hide glue. A bit of heat and most come apart taher cleanly
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Hugh
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Posts: 441
What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on Jun 7, 2024 19:36:00 GMT
Interesting. I hadn't thought about the effect of the humidity from the steam on the ink, but something to keep in mind. If hide glue was used (perhaps your suggestion of horse glue), an iron or hair dryer would loosen it.( dry heat). I used to repair guitars and many have the necks and fretboards attached using hide glue. A bit of heat and most come apart taher cleanly Great suggestion. It turns out it was some sort of hide glue. Thanks to you, I've added a new philatelic tool to my kit ... a Black & Decker Profinish 714 iron After about 30 seconds of dry heat, I could see the seal starting to soften and the glue on the rest of the flap started to open up. After a short break and another 15 seconds, I could peel the flap back. The seal broke the paper, as is usual but I now had a full copy of the original letter. ![](https://i.ibb.co/bPrs6sF/1871-French-Cover-7.jpg) I've come to the conclusion, that this letter was never opened. Had it been, the damage, from the seal alone - let alone the extra glue along the flap, would have been visible. Also, the heat made visible where the glue came from. It looks like there was too much glue used on the inside of the embossed seal and when pressure was applied it radiated out in all directions under the flap. The front of the cover is fine. The back now has some 'artificial' foxing caused by the heat. Here is what the back now looks like to the naked eye. ![](https://i.ibb.co/PhpG6ym/1871-French-Cover-8.jpg) Here is what it looks like after I artificially enhance the colour to show the sprays of glue from the seal. ![](https://i.ibb.co/QnbzmWB/1871-French-Cover-8.jpg) An interesting experiment -- one I hope never to do again.
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,798
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Jun 9, 2024 1:29:25 GMT
Stumbled on this 1958 cover in a box of stuff with a nice assortment of stamps although none I need. I am more intrigued by the postmark and the return address. I am wondering if TOURS RP is a railway cancel. The word TOURS appears on the return address while a Google search of the street address suggests it is in Lyon. Possibly the sender was on a tour by train. EDIT: This is not such a mystery after all. franoise supplied this information: Not a railway cancel. Tours RP = Tours Recette Principale (Main Post Office) Tours is a town on the banks of the Loire. ![](https://tsfimagehost.net/images/2024/06/08/113882bd929ca8c1c8c58bc1f72f8586.jpg) ![](https://tsfimagehost.net/images/2024/06/08/07582d03c446711a07a8ba95e47160a8.jpg)
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Post by franoise on Jun 9, 2024 5:37:02 GMT
Not a railway cancel. Tours RP = Tours Recette Principale (Main Post Office)
Tours is a town on the banks of the Loire.
![](https://i.ibb.co/sP01b3k/Tours-Congress-of-the-French-Federation-of-Philatelic-Socie.jpg)
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,798
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Jun 9, 2024 10:36:12 GMT
Not a railway cancel. Tours RP = Tours Recette Principale (Main Post Office)
Tours is a town on the banks of the Loire.
Thanks franoise I was pretty sure you would have an answer. You can imagine my frustration trying to do a Google search using the word Tours.
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vikingeck
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Posts: 3,472
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 9, 2024 11:41:35 GMT
Beautiful French Cover... ![](https://i.ibb.co/DDpc9BT/France-Cover.jpg) Plus Italian 25 cents Postage DUE!!
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JeffS
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Posts: 2,759
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jun 9, 2024 15:46:30 GMT
The 25c “postage due” is likely the charge for the “poste restante” service, that is “general delivery” in English terms.
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Hugh
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Posts: 441
What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on Jun 19, 2024 0:19:37 GMT
One of our local club dealers always has a box or three of fifty-cent covers. It was the AGM this week and I was partly listening to the proceedings and partly going through the box. I found this. ![](https://i.ibb.co/rtQ2vSp/Arrived-too-late.jpg) At first, it seemed to be the back of a rather ordinary picture postcard. But ... it was sent to a Miss Fanny Graddon, a 1st class passenger on the SS Duchess of Richmond at Le Havre.. The person who mailed it was travelling on a train between Toucy, Moulin and Gien - you can see the scalloped train cancel. I can just make out that it was sent in August, 1937. I can't make out the date. Here's the problem, the SS Duchess of Richmond had left Southampton on August 17, 1937 for Montreal with a stop at Cherbourg -- about 150 KM west of Le Havre. So, when the postcard was received at Le Havre, someone wrote down Cherbourg and sent it on it's way. Sadly, when it got to Cherbourg, it was too late. The boat had sailed. The card was then hand-stamped in purple ARRIVED TOO LATE / ARRIVE TROP TARD. It was then sent to Miss Graddon at her address in Montreal. I was able to find Miss Graddon in the passenger archives. She did indeed have a first class cabin (Nr. 87) on the SS Duchess of Richmond. The McCord-Steward Museum of Montreal also helpfully confirmed that Fanny was an established Milliner and designer who had a business -- House of Flowers -- that operated between 1925 and 1968. One of her hats, from the 30's, is on display at the museum. It would appear that she eventually received the postcard and kept it until it found it's way into the dealer's box. Now, that's worth fifty cents don't you think?
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Hugh
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Posts: 441
What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on Jun 19, 2024 19:32:07 GMT
So, some covers you get for fifty cents. And then there are covers like this one. From Rome to Marseille, 1868. ![](https://i.ibb.co/2yWGV6j/1868-Cover.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/LJcz2Cq/1868-Cover-1.jpg) The backstory is that in 1849 France laid siege to Rome. Garibaldi and his army were forced to withdrew from the city following a truce (they found safe haven in San Marino). Meanwhile, on July 3, 1848 the French occupied Rome. They expelled the short lived Roman Republic, restored the Papal States (the Pope had fled the city in 1848) and settled down to occupy Rome. They stayed until 1870 when they were needed back in France … something to do with a Prussian siege of Paris – smile. The cover in front of us, was posted on June 28, 1868 from occupied Rome. Front, Receiving Cancel: Outer Ring 2 CORPS EXPEDRE 2 ROME Inner Circle 25 JUIN 68 This marking was used on mail from the 2nd division stationed in Rome. Known to be used between December 1867 and June 1870. Obliteration: Lozenge CER 2 [Corp Expeditionary 2] Also associated with the 2nd Division Back, Arrival Cancel: a bit blurred Outer Ring MARSEILLE (12) [Département 12 / Bouches-du-Rhône] Inner Circle 27 JUIN 68 It’s just an envelope so, sadly, there is no letter or any information about the sender. Stamp: France: Napoleon III 20c Blue Issued: 1853 Sc. 15 It appears that the person to whom it was addressed would have picked it up from a coffee shop – Café de Marseille – in “Marseille, B’es du Rhone”. Sounds like the start of a thriller doesn’t it? I spent an hour this morning (it’s too hot to work outside anyway) drinking tea and looking through a massive list of personal names. I couldn’t find anything that fit the name on the envelope – does it start with an H, an X , TL, TH? Suggestions very welcome. The cover had been expertized by a former collector back in 1961. Here’s a copy. Be cool wherever you are. ![](https://i.ibb.co/WpWK4KJ/1868-Exp.jpg)
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,472
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 19, 2024 20:38:24 GMT
Nice one Hugh . Congratulations, it takes awareness of the unusual to find covers as unusual as this. It is the kind of rather untidy cover with a common French stamp. Most collectors would probably fail to spot the manuscript FRANCE which is only necessary if the letter had come from elsewhere! Recognising that Rome postmark deserves our admiration. the name is strange. Could the letters be. “I L …” anything else would be unpronounceable
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paul1
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Post by paul1 on Jun 19, 2024 21:02:46 GMT
marvellous detective work Hugh - well done ... what a gem for 50 cents.
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JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,759
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
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Post by JeffS on Jun 19, 2024 21:48:23 GMT
Hugh Certainly a cover of merit and a response.
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Hugh
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Posts: 441
What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on Jun 20, 2024 2:43:38 GMT
Nice one Hugh . Congratulations, it takes awareness of the unusual to find covers as unusual as this. It is the kind of rather untidy cover with a common French stamp. Most collectors would probably fail to spot the manuscript FRANCE which is only necessary if the letter had come from elsewhere! Recognising that Rome postmark deserves our admiration. the name is strange. Could the letters be. “I L …” anything else would be unpronounceable Thanks ... but I need to be honest. In the case of the 1868 cover, it wasn't so much something I found as something I actually went looking for. When I first got interested in occupation stamps, I did the usual thing. I started to acquire an accumulation of the standards ... the 1870 stamps, the Peru / Chile stamps, the WW1, WW2 occupation stamps, the AMG issues and so on. I still do that. But a few years ago, I started thinking about the postal history of occupations in more general terms. Often there are no stamps, but there are covers. For example, what about the US Civil War? I researched what cities changed hands during that war and started looking for illustrative covers. They're a lot easier to find when you know what you're looking for and when ... the Federal occupation of New Orleans, for example. I did the same thing with other civil wars, insurgencies, coups, and military occupations. For example, I'm currently working on occupations during of the wars of Napoleon. 'Modern' occupations range from the years following the Treaty of Westphalia to today's headlines. Enough work for a lifetime. Anyway, when I started reading about the French occupation of Rome between 1848 and 1870 ... I started looking for covers that would evidence that. This is one that I 'found'. I'd like to think I have what you called "an awareness of the unusual" ... and I'm working on it ... but mostly it's research and advice from some great specialists at my club and, more recently, here at TSF. Since joining, I've spend hours reading old threads here ... it's like getting a graduate degree in philately and finding virtual mentors and coaches. In the case of the fifty cent cover. That's where the fun of discovery comes in - finding a treasure that I wasn't looking for. Like research, that just takes time. My wife and I (she's a collector too) took home two bankers boxes of covers from a couple of the club dealers at the last meeting. We've spent an hour or two each day since then going over them. Two sets are eyes are better than one. "Here's a Belgium postcard with those Sunday stamps you like", "Thanks, and here's a fieldpost cover from a bicycle troop unit" ... "Can you make out what this is?" It's been a fun week. Thanks again. I'll try your "I L" suggestion in the morning.
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Hugh
Member
Posts: 441
What I collect: Occupation Stamps and Postal History, Worldwide; Canada, the UK, France and Germany.
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Post by Hugh on Jul 9, 2024 3:49:10 GMT
Just when it seems I'm making some progress with French marcophily, I run into a brick wall. ![](https://i.ibb.co/9VWHGd6/1860-Paris-Cover.jpg) ![](https://i.ibb.co/7RB9qwm/1860-Paris-Cover-1.jpg) For practice, I started to analyze the above cover. At first glance it seemed fairly routine. It was posted in Nantes on April 26, 1860 and sent, by overnight train, to Paris. Admittedly, that's a pretty early use for train mail. The railway system took longer to expand in France than in the UK or Belgium. The first train only chugged into Nantes in 1851 - nine years earlier. I read the account of it in the London Illustrated News for August 30, 1851. The early trains were primitive (as you can see in the following illustration) but they had one heck of a party ... "the inauguration was further celebrated by a regatta, races, a balloon ascent, a banquet at the Hôtel de Ville, an electric light display, fireworks, etc.; all which lasted until the next evening". But I digress. ![](https://i.ibb.co/Q9SZxqf/Screenshot-2024-07-08-at-5-29-18-PM.jpg) Anyway, the receiving cancel looks OK. Receiving Cancel: Nantes, Département 44 (Loire-Inférieure) Type 15: Used from 1838 to 1868 Diameter 22mm (as it should be) Black Ink Double Circle Outer Ring – NANTES (44) Inner Ring – 26 / AVRIL / 60 The Obliterating Diamond Lozenge, however, is faint and very hard to read. It should have the number 2602 (for Nantes). I can just about make out a couple of 2's, maybe? As far as I'm aware this lozenge type was used from 1852 to 1863. The Point to Point measurement is supposed to be 27mm ... which it is. And, the ink is black, so check. Except for some uncertainty about the number, it seems OK. The stamp that's being obliterated is a 1853 Napoleon III 20c blue. Sc. 15. I'm not fluent, and the handwriting is not clear, but it seems to me that the sender has written 'Pressée' in the upper left hand corner. I assume that means they wanted it to get to Paris asap. Turning to the back ... we get to the departure / train cancel. It's a textbook example of an Ambulant de nuit avec lettre de brigade. That is, a Night Train (because its round) and it has a unit number. Another type 15, this version used from 1854 to 1885. Black Ink, check. Double Circle Outer Ring – NANTES A PARIS C Inner Ring – 26 / AVRIL / 60 Again, looking good. Then comes my brick wall. The arrival. I'm expecting to see an arrival cancel like this: Double Circle Outer Ring – PARIS (60) [60 = The département number] ... maybe a flueron or an asterisk or two - based on the examples I found of Paris cancels in 1860. Inner Ring – 27 / AVRIL / 60 But instead, what I see is: Double Circle Outer Ring – PARIS / 2 / (9) / 2 Inner Ring – 27 / AVRIL / 60 I've gone through the references and resource material I have and I can't see any Paris cancel that looks anything like this one. If I had to guess, I assume that the 2's are either hour / time indicators or section numbers within Paris. But, why the (9)? Paris is in départment 60. I'll keep looking, but if anyone can show me the error of my ways, I'd appreciate it. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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