tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 25, 2017 1:51:19 GMT
First, some definitions:
Cut Square: a section of postal stationery, cut from the entire, which contains the stamp-like indicium. Cut squares are considered less desirable than entires. While cut squares from stamped envelopes are considered collectible, cut squares from postal cards are not. Per the Scott catalog, the margins on 19th and 20th century cut squares should be at least ¼ inch on the cut sides. Precanceled cut squares must include the entire precancellation. Cut squares of modern issues should show the full tagging bars, when they exist.
Cut-to-shape: the stamp-like indicium from a stamped envelope that has been cut from the entire and trimmed to the size of the indicium. A cut-to-shape piece is generally less desirable than a cut square.
Entire: an intact piece of postal stationery, that is, a piece of postal stationery that has not been reduced in size (also used to refer to any intact cover).
Full Corner: a cut square that includes both back and side flaps; these generally command a premium.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 25, 2017 20:12:08 GMT
Ok, I am at the library, found the right Scott's catalogue, an am now completely lost. I have two blue 1 cent "Columbus and Liberty" cut squares, and one is a deeper shade of blue than the other. Also, they both have different watermarks. Two numbers are listed: U76 and U348, and there are supposed to be four different variations of each number listed. I am completely confused. Help?
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Post by mdroth on Feb 25, 2017 21:38:51 GMT
Oh boy... **(You have to read the end of this post first! I figured out your problem at the end of typing all of this!!)** OK: you can't be confused between these two Scott #s - the 'stamps' - designs - are completely different. Very simple: Are there 2 small heads on it? (Columbus & Liberty) (If yes, it is U348!) If it is one large head, (Mr. Franklin!) then it is U76. Since you said 'Columbus & Liberty' then my guess is U348. ALWAYS - Pictures needed! As pictures are complicated on this site, links as examples: This auction is for U348-U351 (yours should be the 1c blue in this auction!): www.ebay.com/itm/US-U348-U351-set-MNH-cut-squares-/201830477246?hash=item2efe08adbe:g:4bAAAOSwfVpYrw6SThis one is U76: www.ebay.com/itm/U-S-MINT-U76-CUT-SQUARE-CV-17-/391711438463?hash=item5b33d2367f:g:Ud8AAOSwOgdYrOg0Now, let's learn how to understand the Scott catalog listing: Looking at the listing for Scott #348: The first entry - that should say '1c Deep Blue' - with mint price of $2.25 & used price of $1.25 (my Scott catalog is 2012 US Specialized in this case, so you may see slightly different prices) - that is the listing for a 'cut square' - in very fine condition, cut in a 'square' shape - with good margins all around. (Like in the auction listing!) The 2nd entry - is the value/listing for an entire - meaning not a cut square - but an 'entire' envelope! See another auction listing for an 'entire': www.ebay.com/itm/US-U348-U351-set-unused-entires-/201830445068?hash=item2efe08300c:g:ohMAAOSw2gxYrwdh(Notice a much higher price!!) The 3rd listing is for an entire, with a special cancel, and the same for the 4th listing. These listings (#2, #3, & #4) - are NOT variations - they are different items entirely - a cut square vs a full envelope. The info printed above these listings explains the 4 'variations'. One of the main differences, for this stamp/stamped envelope, is periods - literally meaning a 'dot' at the end of a word, like when we type english sentences! You can compare your 2 copies to see which of the 4 'types' you have. In the full envelope ebay auction, on the 1c blue, you'll see 'periods' after the words America & Cent on that envelope. On the cut square auction, (the first one I pasted above) - you'll see 'periods' on the 1c & 5c but not on the 2c & 10c. To the best of my knowledge, there are no watermarks on these envelopes/cut squares (U348) and I'd be very curious how you determined that - especially in a library! (You need a watermark tray & lighter fluid - they'd probably freak out if you were doing that in a library!) As to colors: Scott doesn't mention any color variations on the U348 - they were all printed in deep blue. However: keep in mind - these are pieces of paper, printed in 1893 - 120 years ago. The printing quality of that day was not what it is today - and different print runs / batches - could've (& did!) have subtle variations in the ink. The ink quality of the day was also not the same as today. Further, environmental conditions - over the last 120 years - would also have had an effect on the color. So different 'shades' is common & expected - but not intended on this issue & not listed in Scott. Like I said: cut squares are tough! (U348 is actually very easy. The U76 is much much harder - compare Scott 'design' #s U23, U34, & U35!) (Make sure you understand the difference between Scott # - U348 on your stamp - and the 'design' # - whicb is U76 on your stamp) - wait - that's your problem!! The first # is the scott # - the 2nd # - 'U76' - is the DESIGN Number!! You have to learn how to 'read' the Scott Catalog first!! Look at the U348 listing. U348 - in 'bold' - is the Scott Catalog #. The 2nd # - 'U76' - is the 'Design' # - so you know what 'design' the stamp is - and it is listed next to the description of the picture, above the listings. Read the introduction/'how to use this catalog' section at the beginning of the catalog first!!! (next! before reading anything else!!) Good grief! Another 'mystery' solved!!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2017 21:47:40 GMT
The U348 Columbus/Liberty comes in 3 dies 1 - Meridian behind Columbus head. Period after CENTS and AMERICA 2 - No meridian. With period 3 - With meridian. No periods.
I do not see any notes on color variations but that's quite possible since different dies were used and time and conditions are a factor..
U76 is the design type
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bobby1948
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Post by bobby1948 on Feb 26, 2017 14:06:18 GMT
I feel your pain, Edith! Back in the day when I believed I had to collect everything that had spaces in my Scott National album, I eagerly advanced to my pile of cut squares and ephemera. Eagerness soon became consternation followed by frustration and finally culminated in a hissy fit which involved gnashing of teeth and loud invective cursing which would have made my stevedore cousin blush. I am not a great fan of minutia (id est, “stamp collector” as opposed to “philatelist”), and my infatuation with this aspect of stamping soon waned into nonexistence. I removed the offending pages from my album and tossed them into the recycling bin.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 26, 2017 17:32:54 GMT
Wow, ok. Thank you all for the help! Firstly, I think I have the design# vs. Stamp# down, and that helps a lot. As for the watermarks, my mom taught me to hold a stamp up to the light and then the watermark will shine through. When I held the cut squares up to the light there were patterns in the paper. I will try to figure out a way to photograph this... Anyway, no lighter fluid was brought into the library! I would have probably escorted myself out if I tried something like that. I don't have enough time to get scans of the offending cut squares right now, but I will do my best to post some tonight. Also, I found another Columbus and Liberty... this one is PURPLE. (the fun never ends!) I'm not fed up with cut squares yet. If anything, I am only more curious now!
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Feb 26, 2017 17:41:58 GMT
Bobby my solution was similar.I scraped every printed page and use a blank slate.Catalogs often lack enough detail to be able to tell exactly what they are trying to tell you.Without multiple examples to compare it often ends up as you say #@*^#@!
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 27, 2017 3:31:38 GMT
Something came up, so scans are postponed until tomorrow, but I did find yet another Columbus and Liberty!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 27, 2017 15:39:50 GMT
I feel your pain, Edith! Back in the day when I believed I had to collect everything that had spaces in my Scott National album, I eagerly advanced to my pile of cut squares and ephemera. Eagerness soon became consternation followed by frustration and finally culminated in a hissy fit which involved gnashing of teeth and loud invective cursing which would have made my stevedore cousin blush. I am not a great fan of minutia ( id est, “stamp collector” as opposed to “philatelist”), and my infatuation with this aspect of stamping soon waned into nonexistence. I removed the offending pages from my album and tossed them into the recycling bin. I couldn't have expressed it better myself, Bobby. My experience with cut-squares has been almost exactly the same as yours and Frog's. I bought a bunch of them at one time to mount in those pages in my Scott American Album, and 98% of them are still arranged in the dealer stock cards just as I acquired them.
Unfortunately for me, since I am using vintage hard-bound albums rather than loose-leaf ones, I have not been able to eliminate the pages without seriously damaging the album.
At some point, I think I will plan on doing either a charity auction or giveaway to put my U.S. postal stationery items into the hands of a collector who will appreciate them.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 27, 2017 16:08:06 GMT
Alright, the massive Columbus & Liberty picture post is INCOMING!!!!!! Firstly, here are all of the ones I have found so far. The purple one is my favorite due to the fact that that is my favorite color. Note that the top two have periods but different looking postmarks. The bottom two have no periods. So, there are two of the die variations and two of the postmark variations. Now, if only I could figure out what they mean by "meridian behind Columbus's head," then I will be golden! Next, the "watermarks" You can see in the bottom left corner of the left square the letters "T Y", which I assume is the ending of "Liberty". As for the other three cut squares, your guess is as good (or better!) as mine. Finally, do y'all have any suggestions for... not sure exactly how to say this... the format of self-designed albums? For instance, should I make pages with all of the scott numbers and then fill them out as I acquire more squares, or should I wait and find sets, like the Columbus and Liberty, and then make a complete page for that set? I am completely new to making my own album, so any suggestions are welcome!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 27, 2017 16:22:00 GMT
Alright, the massive Columbus & Liberty picture post is INCOMING!!!!!! Firstly, here are all of the ones I have found so far. The purple one is my favorite due to the fact that that is my favorite color. Finally, do y'all have any suggestions for... not sure exactly how to say this... the format of self-designed albums? For instance, should I make pages with all of the scott numbers and then fill them out as I acquire more squares, or should I wait and find sets, like the Columbus and Liberty, and then make a complete page for that set? I am completely new to making my own album, so any suggestions are welcome! Very nice work on photographing the watermarks, Edith! They can readily be seen.
I am not especially adept at identification of postal stationery or making my own albums (I have always just used mass-produced ones), so I will leave that to others who are more knowledgeable than I am.
One thing that you could do in the meantime, would be to acquire a large size stockbook (roughly 9" x 12" in size) and then you could arrange the squares in there while you decide what you want to do for an album. This offers the ultimate flexibility that you can re-arrange the items as often as you like, and it is easy to add or remove items to see what arrangement you like best.
Just a thought....
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 27, 2017 16:26:01 GMT
Also, I just spotted what looks like "1882" in the bottom left corner of the left cut square in the second watermark picture. I really need to just spend 30 minutes in paint and trace all of the lines. I bet that the designs would be much more obvious after that. I have a late class tonight, but maybe I can do that tomorrow.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 27, 2017 16:28:45 GMT
A stockbook is a good idea. I will need to see what I can find on the magical ebay.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 27, 2017 16:29:37 GMT
By the way, Edith, the date would be 1892 to commemorate the 400th Anniversary of Columbus's discovery of America. The U.S. also issued a big set of commemorative stamps to mark that anniversary.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 27, 2017 20:18:32 GMT
By the way, Edith, the date would be 1892 to commemorate the 400th Anniversary of Columbus's discovery of America. The U.S. also issued a big set of commemorative stamps to mark that anniversary. Oh... well, there goes that theory and all of my confidence for my history test tonight. Note to self#2: Studying history consists as much of paying attention to the dates as it does to the fascinating stories. I'm off to study more!
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Feb 27, 2017 20:27:54 GMT
Edith, I'll see if a stockbook will fit in box with catalogs seems I have a couple hanging out.
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Feb 27, 2017 22:08:44 GMT
...As for the other three cut squares, your guess is as good (or better!) as mine... All have the same watermark (Watermark 11) but show different segments of it that are oriented differently. Here is an image of the complete watermark and portions of it overlaid on three of the cut squares (not exact but close enough to get the idea).
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 28, 2017 1:32:16 GMT
Frog, thank you! You and your mom have been more than generous. Please thank her again for me. Also, the stamps you sent me just arrived before I left for class, and I decided to save them as a treat for after my test. Will head home in an hour or so, have dinner, and then take a peek! Thanks again.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Feb 28, 2017 1:33:13 GMT
...As for the other three cut squares, your guess is as good (or better!) as mine... All have the same watermark (Watermark 11) but show different segments of it that are oriented differently. Here is an image of the complete watermark and portions of it overlaid on three of the cut squares (not exact but close enough to get the idea). Mystery solved! Thank you.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 9, 2017 0:30:57 GMT
I have been sorting cut squares today. I started with ovals, then thinned the herd to 2c Washington ovals, and finally ended up with only green 2c Washington ovals. However, I am still getting a hang of the Scott catalogue and am frankly a tiny bit lost. Can I have help with this batch and then tackle the (much more fearsome) batch of red 2c Washingtons on my own?
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Mar 11, 2017 7:14:43 GMT
However, I am still getting a hang of the Scott catalogue and am frankly a tiny bit lost. Can I have help with this batch and then tackle the (much more fearsome) batch of red 2c Washingtons on my own? Hi, Edith! Well, I see that no one else has responded to this, so I will take a shot.
It looks like these are mostly or all "Design U71" in the Scott Catalogue, distinguished by "Bust points between 2nd and 3rd notches of inner oval and "G" of POSTAGE has a bar". That puts the catalogue numbers in the range of U311-U317.
U314 is the "2c green on blue paper", which looks like your first example. The next three may be U313, which is "2c green on oriental buff paper", and most of the rest after that are probably the U311, which is the "2c green on ordinary white paper".
I am absolutely no expert in this area, so you may have a couple of dark green varieties mixed in, and I may not have all of the paper colors exactly correct, but this should be in the ballpark anyway.
Perhaps someone who knows more about U.S. postal stationery will take a look and respond with further info.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 11, 2017 10:06:42 GMT
... Now, if only I could figure out what they mean by "meridian behind Columbus's head," then I will be golden! Imagine that Columbus (the figure on the left) had a ponytail. Immediately above where the ponytail would be, the designs on the bottom row have a line of longitude on the globe (a meridian). The designs on the top row don't. Ryan
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tomiseksj
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Post by tomiseksj on Mar 11, 2017 13:34:25 GMT
Expanding on Ryan 's description, here is a comparison showing one with no meridian and the other with the meridian.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 12, 2017 17:26:45 GMT
Thank you all for your help! I have not done much sorting this week, but I think it is time for the postal stationery to come back out. Also, sorry for disappearing! It was midterms week, and therefore I was studying a lot. However, tomorrow starts spring break! Prepare to be asked a lot of questions.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 12, 2017 23:02:11 GMT
Ok, I very tentatively think I have this batch sorted out. It is hard to capture the colors with my scanner, but this is pretty close. The oriental buff is a very "pinkish" paper, while u317 is only slightly pinkish, so I think it is that amber manila. (?) The ones listed as u315 are clean enough that I think they were not originally white, so I guess that is manila. However, except for that one VERY white cut square in the u311 corner, I am not entirely sure what these ones are because they are either too dirty or too aged/yellowed for my untrained eyes to discern their true identity.
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firstfrog2013
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Post by firstfrog2013 on Mar 13, 2017 12:56:41 GMT
Edith, congrats on finding the courage to try to discern all the differences. How can you be sure?? You can't. Without a known example to compare things to,it becomes a pure guessing game on some things. That old saying "Do your best" is the key to most collecting interests.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 14, 2017 19:12:45 GMT
Today's challenge: This is about 2/3 of the red 2c Washington batch. Wish me luck!
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bobby1948
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Post by bobby1948 on Mar 14, 2017 21:53:33 GMT
Don't think I have ever seen anyone jump into the cut-square fray with such abandon and eagerness! Tell you what, Edith, soon as you wade through this quagmire, I'll send you all my Washington/Franklins and you can sort and type them for me.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 16, 2017 4:03:58 GMT
Don't think I have ever seen anyone jump into the cut-square fray with such abandon and eagerness! Tell you what, Edith, soon as you wade through this quagmire, I'll send you all my Washington/Franklins and you can sort and type them for me. I will have you know that with my soon-to-be-found expertise I intend to charge per hour, however, I accept payment by check, PayPal, in stamps, or in lobsters.
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Lila Schatten
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Post by Lila Schatten on Mar 25, 2017 22:14:33 GMT
Firstly, I would like you all to appreciate the fearsome guardian of the stamp table. He will guard your philatelic interests from all who dare to approach, which happens to also include you. Now, on to the main attraction! As you may see, the "oriental buff" and "amber manila" green washingtons have switched places. This is because the red washingtons can be on oriental buff paper, but were never printed on amber manila, and the oriental buff red washington matched what I had listed as amber manila for the green washingtons. Progress! Hopefully the more cut squares I sort the more certain I will become as to which paper is which. Now, which batch to tackle next...
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