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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 19:32:29 GMT
[Posted by former member Morgan (@n9n9n9n9)]
Ok my first question would be is a stamps grade just as important in your world as it is in coins, comic books or trading cards?
and can you please give me a list of stamps to do my research on.
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Post by smauggie on Nov 1, 2017 20:48:48 GMT
Hi Morgan,
Much like in the world of Numismatics, condition is everything.
The way stamp grading has evolved in philately, though, it is not widely accepted/used. Some people want to get the very best stamp and are happy to count on an grading service to tell them how good the condition is. A system of values tied to those grades but the values given are often far far above the normal cost of the stamp so that chasing highly graded stamps is a very expensive (and many would say relatively meaningless) activity.
Many people happily hunt for the best example of a stamp without the use of a grading company.
Here is an example.
The mint stamp has a catalog value of $1.
You might get a perfect ungraded example for $0.25-2.
You could buy a graded one for $30-150.
Of course part of the benefit of depending on someone else to do the grading is that you don't have to hunt and search for the best stamp, just pay the asking price and it is yours.
One problem I have with the grading of stamps, and this is a personal opinion of mine which not everyone may agree with is that the focus is almost entirely on the centering of a stamp. The fact is there are a number of concerns regarding a grade such as the quality of the printing and the general state of preservation of the stamp. A stamp may be graded as being a perfect grade by a grading company because of excellent centering but it could be the stamp is over-inked or under-inked.
Another problem is that grading primarily focuses only on mint postage stamps. If you are looking for what you might call "circulated" or used stamps, they are usually not graded. If you have chosen to collect these stamps there is no way to get them graded. In the numismatic world it would be like only being able to buy a graded coin if it were in mint state, which of course would be silly.
It all comes down to whether or not you want to or can afford to collect only graded stamps. In the world of Philately grading is only practiced in the US that I am aware of and it is a niche market.
I hope that helps to give you some perspective on the grading of stamps as it is practiced today.
Welcome to The Stamp Forum!
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tomiseksj
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Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 1, 2017 21:46:02 GMT
Hi @n9n9n9n9 , I've moved your question here as substantive matters often get lost when addressed on the Introductions board. If you have access to a library that has a Scott Specialized Catalogue of U.S. Stamps you can check out the prices given for the classic U.S. stamps of various grades. That listing should also support your research with regard to U.S. stamps. Bear in mind, however, that catalog value is not necessarily reflective of market value. Here is a commercial website that offers graded stamps -- if you don't have access a catalog listing the CV of corresponding stamps in the grade of Very Fine (80) you can check the sold listings on ebay to get a sense of the market.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 1, 2017 22:17:36 GMT
Thanks for setting up this new thread, Steve ( tomiseksj) -- this is just what I was hoping for.... smauggie, is it really true that used stamps are only rarely graded? It seems to me that I have seen plenty of ads in Linn's Stamp News over the past few years that show both used and unused graded U.S. stamps, generally classic issues. I also recall that @falshung has previously made posts some time ago about buying a few dollars worth of catalogue value for U.S. stamps at hundreds of times their generally accepted values as non-graded stamps. Anyway, this is a great discussion to have, for sure!
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Post by smauggie on Nov 2, 2017 1:26:57 GMT
smauggie , is it really true that used stamps are only rarely graded? I have no idea whether or not it is in fact true. It is true based my experience. That is the best I can do as I do not have universal knowledge.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 1:54:29 GMT
[Posted by former member Morgan (@n9n9n9n9)]
As an outsider to the stamp collecting world I've only heard about a few different stamps, the penny black and inverted jenny. Is it possible to collect these or is that a stupid question?
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 2, 2017 2:51:38 GMT
Penny blacks are readily available but there are only 100 of the inverted jenny.
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angore
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What I collect: WW, focus on British Empire
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Post by angore on Nov 2, 2017 15:28:44 GMT
Here is an example of PSE prices by grade showing the variation
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bobby1948
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Rest in Peace
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Sir Edmund Burke
Posts: 690
What I collect: WW to 1945; US mnh 1922-1990; US used and unused to 1922
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Post by bobby1948 on Nov 8, 2017 14:13:58 GMT
To me grading is a meaningless, unnecessary service designed to bilk unsuspecting or novice collectors. Advanced collectors know how to judge the condition of a stamp, and realize, as smauggie infers, that there is much more to a stamp's condition than centering. Of course, I am not referring to a certification as to whether a stamp is genuine (which, in my opinion, is really only necessary for classic, i.e. expensive, stamps). But collecting stamps is a personal experience, and if a collector wants to display a piece of paper stating that his/her common 3 cent commemorative is graded 95, that is their business (however, just think about all those empty spaces that could be filled with the $100 or so used to purchase a graded stamp vs. 25 cents for an ungraded, and to the eye, just as appealing copy of the same stamp). Just my opinion, of course (which is worth much less than an ungraded stamp).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 15:52:40 GMT
Grading has absolutely no value for the general hobby in its present form.The focus is almost entirely on "centering" Until there some guidelines on Color intensity Evenness of perforations Overall Condition Freshness of paper Presence of scrapes, creases, thin spots, cuts etc. Quality of gum and Centering last - why There are some classics the the perfs will always cut into the design. That does not make it any less desirable and it brings "centering" into question as being important. Plus centering is very subjective. How giving a "Gem 100" rating to a "perfectly centered" stamp printed in the last 30 years suddenly increases its value from $0.25 to $250 is nothing short of trying to fool unwary collectors into thinking they have an investment stamp. Is there an authoritative definition of "Gem" quality? The Gem craze has pushed stamps that were selling for $100's a few years ago into $1000's today. Mind you if you did spend $5 - $10 to get your stamp graded 98-100 some years ago, now would be a good time to cash in on this craze. Grading is not new, coin & comic graders have very detailed grading criteria even including restorations. www.cgccomics.com/grading-scale/In the last few years, it seems that certain companies have moved from the certification field to grading as the potential for profits is so much greater. It not to say that all companies have the same ethics, some still live in the real world. For anyone in doubt about "centering", the above chart is from a well known catalog on stamp grading. It clearly shows the criteria applied BUT by an incredible coincidence, the base stamp and the design are the SAME in all the pictures! - Photoshop? Luckily these is some sanity out there. This catalog publisher notes the stamp on the left is at it appears in the catalog. But since your stamp will rarely match the catalog quality, they show the discounted value of what you probably have - up to -95% of the CV If you happen to have a nicer one then they give it at least 30%+ premium. As mentioned the whole grading thing seems more of a US phenomena and it is certainly working in the case of those 98-100 grade stamps on prestige auctions. Somebody has the coin to spend but then when you buy a $1000 Iphone or that average $50M car and pay $4/gal to drive it, somebody who reaps the profit can buy graded stamps. So if you feel graded stamps are the way to go, consider the source of the grading and be more concerned with its comparative value.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 8, 2017 16:40:33 GMT
Grading has absolutely no value for the hobby in its present form.The focus is almost entirely on "centering" In the last few years, it seems that certain companies have moved from the certification field to grading as the potential for profits is so much greater. For anyone in doubt about "centering", the above chart is from a well known catalog on stamp grading. It clearly shows the criteria applied BUT by an incredible coincidence, the base stamp and the design are the SAME in all the pictures! - Photoshop? Luckily these is some sanity out there. This catalog publisher notes the stamp on the left is at it appears in the catalog. But since your stamp will rarely match the catalog quality, they show the discounted value of what you probably have - up to -95% of the CV If you happen to have a nicer one then they give it at least 30%+ premium. Thanks for a great post on this subject, @falshung! I was disappointed when your earlier one disappeared, but this new one provides even more information, so thank you for that! By the way, are there any rules or governing bodies in charge of philatelic grading? Do companies that perform grading have to register with some organization or get some kind of certification? Or can stamp companies just decide for themselves to start offering graded stamps? If the latter is possible, then it is clearly a case of having the wolf in charge of the hen house, in my opinion....
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 8, 2017 19:35:38 GMT
Does all of this mean that my retirement isn't secure? And here I thought I was set for life! Seriously, according to the Philatelic Foundation's Manual of Grading, they do take into account factors other than centering such as those mentioned by @falshung . It should be noted that the Philatelic Foundation doesn't grade modern issues -- generally only those listed in the Scott Valuing Supplement. It should also be noted that APS' American Philatelic Expertizing Service (APEX) will only render opinions on authenticity -- it declines requests to make statements on centering or numerical grading.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 8, 2017 20:01:00 GMT
Seriously, according to the Philatelic Foundation's Manual of Grading, they do take into account factors other than centering such as those mentioned by @falshung . It should be noted that the Philatelic Foundation doesn't grade modern issues -- generally only those listed in the Scott Valuing Supplement.It should also be noted that APS' American Philatelic Expertizing Service (APEX) will only render opinions on authenticity -- it declines requests to make statements on centering or numerical grading. Thanks for this post, Steve. I understand from your comments that the Philatelic Foundation will only grade classic issues, but the example in @falshung's now deleted post on this thread showed a "100 Superb" graded pair of US Scott #1229 5-cent Washington coil stamps, issued from 1962-1966. So, some entities do not limit their grading to classic issues, apparently. Coming back to my earlier question, how do various entities become graders of stamps? Do they have to go through some sort of registration or certification process, or do they just set themselves up and create their own certs and "expert" committees?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2017 20:53:32 GMT
The US 482 shown above by tomiseksj was sold in an auction 1916, 2¢ carmine, type I, imperf (Scott 482), o.g., never hinged, immense margins of epic proportions; an eye catching World Class GEM showing large portions of surrounding 8 stamps; unlisted in the SMQ pricing guide above the grade of GEM-100; this 100J is matchless, Superb, with 2007 P.S.E. certificate graded Gem 100J. SMQ Gem 100J; $75. Scott $2. Estimate $100 - 150
It sold for $90So lets see the math here You take a block of 9 X Sc482's and get the scissors out You then send it to PSE - grading, special fees, freight there and back - $30-50 Probably a 10-20% selling fee and the cost of sending to the auction house. So the astute seller makes maybe $25 on the deal, not bad but ... www.usphila.com would probably give a block of nine a value of at least $200-$300 On the "bright" side the buyer got a stamp for a mere $90 he could buy mint with nice margins for under $2. $5 or less would get you 481, 482 and 483 The same auction had 3 more of these 100J graded cut imperfs. (does the J stand for Junk?) If someone gave me that stamp, the first thing I would do is cut the stamp out and leave nice wide margins all around. Who actually likes to collect them with parts of others all around. My last thought on this subject, there are some good US associations and independent dealers that do not grade and simply described the offer as it is but some major auction houses are now on the grading bandwagon along with the usual e-types so this grading craze may be proliferating. There are obviously enough unsuspecting collectors out there that have the means to fuel it. I have probably should have saved some of those gems I sold ....... The modern $0.50 pair given a value of $250 Can used stamps be GEM quality - marks and no gum?? Do short perfs fall into the GEM criteria??
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,385
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Nov 8, 2017 21:12:31 GMT
...So, some entities do not limit their grading to classic issues, apparently. Coming back to my earlier question, how do various entities become graders of stamps? Do they have to go through some sort of registration or certification process, or do they just set themselves up and create their own certs and "expert" committees? You are correct in that some entities will grade modern issues. With regard to your original question, I know of no overarching accreditation entity -- individuals and organizations offering authentication services "self-select" and their long term viability is contingent upon the trust and confidence of the philatelic community. Those entities whose determinations are based upon the consensus of a number of experts seem to have greater credibility than that of the Mom-and-Pop expert shop. This website describes the Professional Stamp Experts (PSE) process for grading and they are one of the entities that will grade modern issues. Philatelic Stamp Authentication and Grading (PSAG) is another entity that you'll see certificates from -- it was started by the individual who founded PSE. You'll note from the PSAG website that the system to standardize the terminology and numerical grading of postage stamps is said to have begun in 1987. The PSE site says they introduced a system in 2001. Most of the "systems" I've seen are quite similar. Edit: In the interest of full disclosure, I received the 100J PSE-graded Scott 482 gratis!
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angore
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Post by angore on Nov 8, 2017 23:19:47 GMT
I am not a fan of grading. The intent was to try to make a commodity out of stamps like coins and of course raking in revenue from grading. I would not be surprised if some of the transactions are shills to prop up the idea.
Now I know some collectors with the bucks are willing to pay for such to make them feel better.
Al
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