Bombadil
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What I collect: Worldwide stamps 1840-1960
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Post by Bombadil on Jan 23, 2018 1:49:08 GMT
Hello Everyone , I found some of these going through my French colonies stamps. France 25c issue of 1907 Overprinted G.L. (Grand Liban) Hedjaz 2 Piastres. Posted below are two examples of my findings. I would like to briefly shed some light on Lebanon postal history before I proceed with my original post. "The State of Greater Lebanon (French: État du Grand Liban) was a state declared on 1 September 1920, which became the Lebanese Republic in 1926, and is the predecessor of modern Lebanon. Following the mandate given to France in 1920 and the defeat of Syrian forces in May 1920 ,Syria was divided in two countries, Syria and Lebanon; and both were under French military occupation. Stamps of France overprinted for use in Syria were used between 1919 and 1923 overprinted T.E.O. (Territoires Ennemis Occupés) or O.M.F. (Occupation Militaire Francaise). Lebanon used the stamps of France, overprinted Grand Liban in 1923. From 1925 Lebanon had its own stamps marked Grand Liban.
The Lebanese Republic was proclaimed on 23 May 1926. At first stamps of Grand Liban were overprinted "Republique Libanaise". Later stamps were prepared in the name of the new republic. and from the 1940s the term Liban started to be used, which is Lebanon's name in French. Independence was proclaimed in 1941, but the country was not evacuated by French troops until 1946. Today all stamps of Lebanon are marked simply Liban." The overprint puzzled me at first as I could not ID in Scott, S.Gibbons or In a specialized Local Lebanese catalogue I bought recently. After an intensive google search I finally found a couple of French articles about this OverPrint, I studied French back in school so I tried my best translating some parts and summarizing the important facts . Some brief history about Hedjaz railway:
The Hejaz Railway was originally built to transport pilgrims from Syria to Madinah, where they would travel on to Mecca for the Muslim Pilgrimage, another reason was to strengthen Ottoman control over the most distant provinces of the empire. The route was a narrow-gauge railway (1,050 mm/3 ft 5 11⁄32 in track gauge) that ran from Damascus(Syria) to Medina, through the Hejaz region of Saudi Arabia, with a branch line to Haifa on the Mediterranean Sea. The idea was first put forward in 1864 during the height of the age of great railways around the world, but it was not until 40 years later (1908) that the Hejaz Railway came into being. Before the Hejaz Railway, Muslim pilgrims traveled to Medina by camel caravan. The journey between Syria and Medinah usually took two months and was full of hardships. On 1 September 1908 the railway officially opened, and by the year 1912 it was transporting 30,000 pilgrims a year. As word spread that the pilgrimage had just become easier, business boomed, and by 1914 the annual load had soared to 300,000 passengers. Not only were pilgrims transported to Medina, but the Turkish army began to use the railway as its chief mode of transport for troops and supplies. This was to be the railway's undoing, as it was severely damaged during the First World War (1914-1918), by Lawrence of Arabia and the Arab Revolt. The old Arab tribes that guided and guarded pilgrims now had the opportunity to turn their vengeance on the railway. While many claim that it was not their intention to destroy the railway, but rather attack the supply lines of the retreating Turkish army, the railway was destroyed anyway. The OverPrint:
The surcharge G.L. (Greater Lebanon) HEDJAZ P.S. (Piastre) 1 or 2 was created for the collection of a tax on the Hédjaz railway by the French authorities when the train is passing through Lebanon to its final destination as settlement of the Ottoman Empire debt case at the time of Lausanne treaty in 1923 link. The French authorities had entrusted the work of surcharging the stamps destined for the territories for which they were responsible to the Gédéon printing works in Beirut(Lebanon) in 1920, and then to the High Commission in 1921 and 1922, finally to that of the Capucin Fathers, always in Beirut . The stamps were surcharged either from 1921, by the High Commission, or, and it is probably more likely in 1923-1924 by the Capuchin Fathers of Beirut. Moreover the presence of the letters G.L for Great Lebanon corresponds well to the mandate dating officially from September 29, 1923. link“The Surcharge is listed by Storch & Françon as non-postal, it would be more of a collector’s fantasy according to the authors. (TP at the 1907 Semeuse Type, Volume II p.398). However, Jean Bernard Parenti in a presentation of the piece of the month (Cilicia : une ébauche de tarifs postaux #210 – September 2011) of the French Philately Academy, invalidates this idea of fantasy.” link My questions:- I stumbled upon the term Collector’s Fantasy several times, can someone briefly explain for me what it means in the Philatelic world?
- Can any of our members provide me with more information and current value on this stamp I would be grateful, as I could not find any similar listings on Ebay or any other place so far?
- Also does anyone have any Storch & Françon or Yvert & Tellier materials covering French colonies in the Middle East?
Any input would be appreciated!
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 23, 2018 5:19:26 GMT
My questions : I stumbled upon the term Collector’s Fantasy several times, can someone briefly explain for me what it means in the Philatelic world? Can any of our members provide me with more information and current value on this stamp I would be grateful, as I could not find any similar listings on Ebay or any other place so far? Also does anyone have any Storch & Françon or Yvert & Tellier materials covering French colonies in the middle east ? First of all, Bombadil, thank you very much for a great post. While I am very familiar with the underlying stamp in this case, I have never seen the overprint you have shown and described. From my perspective, it is a fascinating piece of philatelic history. Just to be sure, I checked the Scott 2017 Classic Specialized Catalogue of Stamps & Covers, and as I expected, there is no listing for this stamp, since it is not a postage stamp. Railway tax stamps simply would not qualify for inclusion in this catalogue, just as other non-U.S. exclusively revenue stamps do not. So, I cannot add much there. As for the term "collector's fantasy", I think I can at least comment on that. Essentially, it means a stamp which was created, in this case by means of the overprint, mainly for the purpose of having something to offer to collectors, rather than for a legitimate revenue purpose. In this specific case, at least to me, it means that either there was not really a need for stamps to collect the said railway tax or that the number of stamps overprinted far exceeded what was actually needed for the intended purpose. In these cases, some catalogues refuse to list these "collector's fantasy" stamps on the grounds that they were created primarily to gain revenue from collectors, rather than for the stated purpose, in this case, to collect the railway tax. Personally, whether considered collector's fantasies or not, I find these sorts of stamps to be very interesting, and if I came across one of these, I would surely add it to my collection. Then again, I am a real sucker for overprints and surcharges during my time period (1840-1930), and especially those on a legitimate and recognizable postage stamp, so perhaps my opinion is not really surprising at all....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2018 13:27:38 GMT
"Fantasie du Collectioneur" would be like calling it a bogus stamp or perhaps a Cinderella In French the collection of non-postal items is called errinophilie, describing collectors of vignettes (Cinderellas) There is no reason for these to be in the realm of Cinderellas or bogus issues, they are non-postal as they fall into revenues. There is ample proof that they were used as a railway tax. The interesting part is that it was obviously printed in 2 different fonts, so it would probably have the base imprint and the HEDJAZ was added after. This may have been for potential use for other districts. The Francon/Storch catalog published in 1973 is still readily available but any CV's are very out of date. It is a general catalog of France & Colonies. The one referred to is more likely the 1981 - "Les Timbres-poste au type semeuse camee de 1907" (1907 Sower issues) which I have a copy of. I have loaned it to a local collector, so when I get it back I will send a scan. Hope this helps -
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Bombadil
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What I collect: Worldwide stamps 1840-1960
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Post by Bombadil on Jan 23, 2018 14:38:13 GMT
Personally, whether considered collector's fantasies or not, I find these sorts of stamps to be very interesting, and if I came across one of these, I would surely add it to my collection. Then again, I am a real sucker for overprints and surcharges during my time period (1840-1930), and especially those on a legitimate and recognizable postage stamp, so perhaps my opinion is not really surprising at all.... Beryllium Guy, I always look forward for your replies when I post something and thank you for clarifying the term. I guess I have the same passion for old overprints, they always catch my attention before anything else. Finally I found a similar listing in a French auction lot, same price for both stamps 1 or 2 Piastres Mint -Original gum – 70 Euros Hinged/Light Hinge Trace with original gum – 50 Euros Unfortunately only 2 out of 7 still have their original gum and in good condition, the rest have no gum and a light pink line crossing the middle of the overprint (I presumed it is a cancellation). It sure would be nice to find the 1 Piastre stamp tucked away somewhere, I will start contacting local Lebanese dealers maybe I will be lucky to find one with a less expensive price .
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Bombadil
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Posts: 465
What I collect: Worldwide stamps 1840-1960
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Post by Bombadil on Jan 23, 2018 14:39:57 GMT
"Fantasie du Collectioneur" would be like calling it a bogus stamp or perhaps a Cinderella In French the collection of non-postal items is called errinophilie, describing collectors of vignettes (Cinderellas) There is no reason for these to be in the realm of Cinderellas or bogus issues, they are non-postal as they fall into revenues. There is ample proof that they were used as a railway tax. The interesting part is that it was obviously printed in 2 different fonts, so it would probably have the base imprint and the HEDJAZ was added after. This may have been for potential use for other districts. The Francon/Storch catalog published in 1973 is still readily available but any CV's are very out of date. It is a general catalog of France & Colonies. The one referred to is more likely the 1981 - "Les Timbres-poste au type semeuse camee de 1907" (1907 Sower issues) which I have a copy of. I have loaned it to a local collector, so when I get it back I will send a scan. Hope this helps - Thank you Falschung for your help , you always have a swift answer ready for me and I am really thankful for that. Am looking forward for the Scan when you get it back .
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 23, 2018 17:37:12 GMT
Personally, whether considered collector's fantasies or not, I find these sorts of stamps to be very interesting, and if I came across one of these, I would surely add it to my collection. Then again, I am a real sucker for overprints and surcharges during my time period (1840-1930), and especially those on a legitimate and recognizable postage stamp, so perhaps my opinion is not really surprising at all.... Unfortunately only 2 out of 7 still have their original gum and in good condition, the rest have no gum and a light pink line crossing the middle of the overprint (I presumed it is a cancellation). It sure would be nice to find the 1 Piastre stamp tucked away somewhere, I will start contacting local Lebanese dealers maybe I will be lucky to find one with a less expensive price. Thanks for your kind comments, Bombadil, I always appreciate your contributions on TSF. Wow, so you have 7 of these stamps in your collection? That seems impressive to me given the values cited from the French source. It may just be more evidence that the philatelist from whom you have inherited your collection really did have an eye for high-quality, interesting material, and apparently the means with which to get it. As I mentioned previously, I have never come across these overprints before, and given their value, I can now understand why. I will be sure to keep my eyes open in the future, in case I ever see one of these in a mixture or assortment of stamps. Considering that the underlying stamp is a relatively common one, I think that an item like this might be missed by an less-than-observant dealer or collector who is not familiar with what these are. Thank you for teaching me about these stamps! One additional comment: I noticed from the French listing that it indicates "NON EMIS", which I believe translates to "not issued". If you have examples which have been used, and as @falshung states that there is "ample proof" that these stamps were used to collect the railway tax, then why would the listing indicate "not issued"? Or does that label only apply to the 1-piastre value? Just curious if you or anyone else is able to comment on that.
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Londonbus1
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Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Jan 23, 2018 20:01:02 GMT
Nice piece and interesting thread. Love it.
Courtesy of Ray Petersen (cinderella dealer/collector and member here) I can tell you these are listed in the Donald Duston Catalogue of French Colonial Revenues and the 2000 Edition appears to give much the same information as has been seen here. Catalogue prices then were $25 for the 1 Piastre and $35 for the 2 Piastre. The L.L. variety was listed at $125. The catalogue also stated the measurements for the 2 overprints 'Hedjaz' which seemed rather odd to me, too small for my eyes. Maybe Bombadil can confirm?
1 Piastre--11½x2mm 2 Piastre--13x2½mm
They also state that 2 types of paper were used. White Paper and a poor quality Grey paper used during the war years.
This topic reminds of my garden in a very small way ! When I came to visit here back in the 1980's I noticed whilst out walking that there were some old pieces of wood on an embankment in the fields. They looked like railway sleepers but did not pay too much attention. Some years later, and with more than a little research behind me, I came back to stay a bit longer and returned to the embankment. The sleepers were still there and now I knew they were sleepers, part of the old Ottoman Line that linked Haifa in the North with Tel Aviv and the old Jaffa-Jerusalem line to the South. From Haifa there were links further North to Beirut and to Aleppo and Damascus and the main Hedjaz (Hejaz) line. Further south the line continued on to El Kantara in Egypt. Now I have some of those sleepers in my garden, a piece of history right on my doorstep and also some of the old original iron pins. One thing I never did find was the location of the junction that linked a line from the East to Tulkarm, where the North-South line was built from. I guess I should start my searching again !!
Sorry for rambling on !
Londonbus1
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 23, 2018 20:22:58 GMT
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Londonbus1
Moderator
Cinderella Stamp Club Member 3059
Posts: 5,064
What I collect: Wonderland; 1912 Jubilee International Stamp Exhibition, London ('Ideal' Stamp, ephemera); French Cinderellas with an emphasis on Poster Stamps; Israel and Palestine Cinderellas ; Jewish National Fund Stamps, Labels and Tags; London 2010, A Festival of Stamps (anything); South Africa 1937 Coronation issue of KGVI, singles or bi-lingual pairs.
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Post by Londonbus1 on Jan 23, 2018 21:08:47 GMT
This is an overprinted French Fiscal stamp, issued in the same year as those in the post by Bombadil. (1921). The catalogue value in 2000 was $40. This is a very nice copy. Edit: Nice-looking copy. Just seen the creases !! Oops !
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 23, 2018 21:14:42 GMT
This is an overprinted French Fiscal stamp, issued in the same year as those in the post by Bombadil. (1921). The catalogue value in 2000 was $40. This is a very nice copy. Edit: Nice-looking copy. Just seen the creases !! Oops ! By the way, the eBay seller is asking US $75.00 for this copy.
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Bombadil
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Posts: 465
What I collect: Worldwide stamps 1840-1960
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Post by Bombadil on Jan 26, 2018 0:45:46 GMT
Nice piece and interesting thread. Love it. Courtesy of Ray Petersen (cinderella dealer/collector and member here) I can tell you these are listed in the Donald Duston Catalogue of French Colonial Revenues and the 2000 Edition appears to give much the same information as has been seen here. Catalogue prices then were $25 for the 1 Piastre and $35 for the 2 Piastre. The L.L. variety was listed at $125. The catalogue also stated the measurements for the 2 overprints 'Hedjaz' which seemed rather odd to me, too small for my eyes. Maybe Bombadil can confirm? 1 Piastre--11½x2mm 2 Piastre--13x2½mm They also state that 2 types of paper were used. White Paper and a poor quality Grey paper used during the war years. Thank You Londonbus1 for ur kind compliments , my apologies for the late reply but i went away on Business the last couple of days . I just measured all the 2 Piastre i have using my newly acquired perforation gauge, almost all registered 13 1/2 x2 1/2mm (i have only used a P.gauge few times, so i hope i took the exact measurements correctly ) . I should have figured that you were the one that will finally nail it,after all we are technically neighbors sharing the same borders and you specialize in Middle East stamps.
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Bombadil
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Posts: 465
What I collect: Worldwide stamps 1840-1960
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Post by Bombadil on Jan 26, 2018 1:02:52 GMT
Unfortunately only 2 out of 7 still have their original gum and in good condition, the rest have no gum and a light pink line crossing the middle of the overprint (I presumed it is a cancellation). It sure would be nice to find the 1 Piastre stamp tucked away somewhere, I will start contacting local Lebanese dealers maybe I will be lucky to find one with a less expensive price. Thanks for your kind comments, Bombadil, I always appreciate your contributions on TSF. Wow, so you have 7 of these stamps in your collection? That seems impressive to me given the values cited from the French source. It may just be more evidence that the philatelist from whom you have inherited your collection really did have an eye for high-quality, interesting material, and apparently the means with which to get it. As I mentioned previously, I have never come across these overprints before, and given their value, I can now understand why. I will be sure to keep my eyes open in the future, in case I ever see one of these in a mixture or assortment of stamps. Considering that the underlying stamp is a relatively common one, I think that an item like this might be missed by an less-than-observant dealer or collector who is not familiar with what these are. Thank you for teaching me about these stamps! One additional comment: I noticed from the French listing that it indicates "NON EMIS", which I believe translates to "not issued". If you have examples which have been used, and as @falshung states that there is "ample proof" that these stamps were used to collect the railway tax, then why would the listing indicate "not issued"? Or does that label only apply to the 1-piastre value? Just curious if you or anyone else is able to comment on that. Thank You again Beryllium Guy , you words always motivate me to try my best into learning more about stamps and to post on interesting subjects . I think the "NON EMIS" is a mistake by the auction house, am basing that conclusion in accordance to what falschung stated and the used ones i have,i also saw different examples of these stamps 1 & 2 used on letters while going through the French articles . link
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jan 26, 2018 1:14:40 GMT
Thanks for your kind comments, Bombadil, I always appreciate your contributions on TSF. One additional comment: I noticed from the French listing that it indicates "NON EMIS", which I believe translates to "not issued". If you have examples which have been used, and as @falshung states that there is "ample proof" that these stamps were used to collect the railway tax, then why would the listing indicate "not issued"? Or does that label only apply to the 1-piastre value? Just curious if you or anyone else is able to comment on that. Thank You again Beryllium Guy , you words always motivate me to try my best into learning more about stamps and to post on interesting subjects . I think the "NON EMIS" is a mistake by the auction house, am basing that conclusion in accordance to what falschung stated and the used ones i have,i also saw different examples of these stamps 1 & 2 used on letters while going through the French articles . linkThanks for your additional kind words and comments, Bombadil. You have definitely succeeded in posting on interesting subjects, and this thread is no exception! Yes, I can certainly believe that the dealer made a mistake in the listing, especially if all of the copies he has are unused. Anyway, thanks!
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