ajkitt
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Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Sept 29, 2018 3:14:46 GMT
Has anyone seen anything like this before? It looks like someone just blotched the wrong color into the middle of the plate?

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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Sept 29, 2018 8:07:40 GMT
Quite peculiar! These orange/yellow/brown colors are often troubled with color changeling. In this case it looks like the changeling has occurred very localized - could have been caused by chemicals/glue/poor paper of a hinge - or someone spilling a drop of cognac while doing stamping
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Sept 29, 2018 10:47:31 GMT
Quite peculiar! These orange/yellow/brown colors are often troubled with color changeling. In this case it looks like the changeling has occurred very localized - could have been caused by chemicals/glue/poor paper of a hinge - or someone spilling a drop of cognac while doing stamping Wow. Flashback! I do remember way back when I could buy packets of stamps at J.C. Penny's in which the fifty or so stamps were held to the cardstock with a dab of rubber cement in the center!
but dang... there goes another freak or oddity of mine explained away in terms so normal it makes me sigh... . ;-) Although, I'm still tempted to test the cognac theory on this thing. I bet I can drink enough to cause a little random spillage!
Thanks blaamand! Andy Kitt
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 29, 2018 11:57:03 GMT
Quite peculiar! These orange/yellow/brown colors are often troubled with color changeling. In this case it looks like the changeling has occurred very localized - could have been caused by chemicals/glue/poor paper of a hinge - or someone spilling a drop of cognac while doing stamping Wow. Flashback! I do remember way back when I could buy packets of stamps at J.C. Penny's in which the fifty or so stamps were held to the cardstock with a dab of rubber cement in the center!
but dang... there goes another freak or oddity of mine explained away in terms so normal it makes me sigh... . ;-) Although, I'm still tempted to test the cognac theory on this thing. I bet I can drink enough to cause a little random spillage! Thanks for an interesting post, Andy! And thanks to Jon ( blaamand ) for the "cognac theory"! I agree that it definitely sounds like one to try out.... In the serendipity department, I just got back from seeing my local stamp dealer at the street market this morning, and I bought some early French Colonies issues from him, with the Ceres head design, one of which is Scott #14, 40-centime orange on yellowish paper. The only 40c orange that he had shows some signs of sulphuretting, exactly what Jon mentioned about the tendency of these orange colors to become changelings. I should also add that the dealer told me that he believes that there is a way to revive the color on orange stamps which have been sulphuretted, and it sounded like he was saying something about soaking the stamp in a special kind of solution to accomplish that. He explained all of this to me in French, and I am not quite sure that I understood him completely. I will go back to see him again next week and ask again. The remarkable thing, in my opinion, is that I came home from the market having just had this conversation with the dealer, and then I found Andy's and Jon's posts discussing that very same subject. My stamp is about half orange and half brown, but not as dramatically well-defined as yours, Andy. I don't have access to a scanner today, but I will scan an image of the stamp and post it in the coming days.
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Sept 29, 2018 15:13:26 GMT
Chris, you are right. The liquid the dealer was talking about was probably Hydrogen peroxide. There are some threads in other forums informing about good experience on using this liquid for bringing back the original colour of stamps. It can also be used to some extent for reversing negative effects on stamps stored in hot climate and/or very humid conditions. In some of the experiments shared, the improvement in colour is unbelievable. Probably not worth the effort for the more common 'Germania' stamps tough.... but the common stamps are great for experimenting.
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renden
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What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Sept 29, 2018 15:47:40 GMT
Jon (blaamand) is right. Much has been discussed in other Forums on the subject. I have never tried it and would have to re-read some threads on this subject. Hydrogen Peroxyde is sold at Pharmacy in 3% and 6% concentration. Let us not forget it is a bleaching agent, and you know how this "oxidizing" agent was a very popular antiseptic in the times, but not anymore as it apparently destroys some live cells in humans. However, to remove dead skin or dry blood around a minor wound (not deep wounds), it works great.....Chlorine is a powerful bleaching agent (Chlorox) and used in swimming pools and cheaper than Brome and the effects on water gives this nice and clear appearance. Not sure it kills all these bacterias in "public" pools !! And you do not use chlorine on stamps !! Since we are on the subject of changeling in stamps, I will review the "popular" formulas used and come back with something and maybe I will try it on some cheap duplicate of mine !! René Here is a nice article on the subject from Stamp Smarter site: I copied the link from the post containing it but pasting it here does not open it like the other site - so I would you go directly on Stampsmarter.com or try this link which does work for me (but I am a member ??) Let me know if it gives you access to this well written article. www.stampsmarter.com/learning/HowToRemoveOxidation.html
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 30, 2018 6:34:42 GMT
For anyone interested - a limited time offer
THE DEALERS' GUIDE TO CHEMICAL RESTORATION OF POSTAGE STAMPS 40 page pdf booklet on how it is done PM me WITH your email! Thanks again to Nelson, and his extensive philatelic library, we all now can benefit from those resources and learn a bit more about some of the finer points of the hobby we all love. One thing I have learned is that when Nelson offers to share some of his library treasures, don't hesitate--get whatever it is while it is on offer. It will always be worth it! An important aspect of my working career has been engineering. While I have also worked in other roles during that time, I am at heart an engineer. I like technical things, and I have been involved in the writing of many technical papers, and when I do those activities, I strive to be as technically accurate as I can. It is one of the aspects of my character that as my wife would say, is "both a blessing and a curse." So, I have read the first few pages of the reference cited and offered in Nelson's post, and I have had a couple of realizations. I got the technical terms in my own previous post incorrect, so for clarity, I would like to correct that now. I will also go back and edit that post, for the sake of others who may access this information in the future. So according to the reference: "Deoxidation is synonymous with Sulphuration (Sulpheretted) and is often misinterpreted with oxidation. A sulphuretted stamp is one in which the lead in one of the ink constituents has combined chemically with the sulphur in the atmosphere. This causes the original colour (usually blue, green, red or yellow) to become a brownish black colour. Salt ocean water can often achieve sulphuration." In summary, what Andy ( ajkitt ) found in his stamp is, therefore, not oxidation but rather deoxidation or sulphuration. As Jon ( blaamand ) mentioned, the process of using a liquid like hydrogen peroxide to reverse that process makes sense to me, at least in terms of the chemistry. And that process would oxidize the stamp to reverse the deoxidation which occurred. This also fits with what the dealer was trying to explain to me in French, but which I did not understand well at the time. He was saying something that sounded like "oxygen-rich water", and I was thinking what could that be? But of course, as soon as Jon mentioned hydrogen peroxide, I thought "of course"! How could I have missed that? The chemical formula for water is H 2O, and for hydrogen peroxide is H 2O 2. Oxygen-rich water it is! As I work my way through the rest of the reference supplied by Nelson, I will make additional posts to this thread, if they seem relevant to this specific discussion. Steve ( Admin ), should we consider renaming this thread to reflect that it is about sulphuration and oxidation of stamp colors, and relocate it from the Germany board to a better location as a reference for others? To that end, I am also planning to post scans of other sulpheretted stamps, and I may attempt to try some of the processes suggested in the reference. Just a thought.... Thanks to all for reading my ramblings!
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renden
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Posts: 7,837
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Sept 30, 2018 12:26:14 GMT
Thanks Chris for the Guide - it does complement Stamp Smarter's article which I posted (link) René
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 2, 2018 3:24:49 GMT
First, thank you for the booklet! Very cool, and it had a surprising amount of helpful uv info too!
But... yaknow, the stamp is only like a couple bucks cv and I have a better copy anyhow, so I think I'm going to mount it as it is in my "oddities" pages, perhaps next to my "ugliest still-identifiable postage stamp", or by my "world's worst postmark forgery," or... I'm sure I'll find a place, yes?
Thanks again for the input, all y'all! Andy
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 2, 2018 3:30:44 GMT
speaking of which, does anyone know if there is there a thread or a section or anything around here devoted to freaks, oddities, and curious bits? I'm not particularly good at negotiating with search engines... :-(
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,589
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many, many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Oct 2, 2018 9:50:17 GMT
speaking of which, does anyone know if there is there a thread or a section or anything around here devoted to freaks, oddities, and curious bits? I don't know of one - I've posted a few screwballs in the past (like this post showing a couple of oddities from Brazil) but generally in the correct country page or some other thread that was specific to some discussion that was already underway. Oh well. Go ahead and start a thread, then there will be one! And in that regard, there are also things I've posted in the past that I can't find, and here's one of them which kind of sort of almost fits in with the current "discoloured" theme. How did this happen? Is it an actual albino (mostly, there's a little bit of ink remaining on the design) or has somebody figured out how to remove the stamp design ink without removing the precancel ink?  Ryan
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,053
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Oct 2, 2018 19:25:23 GMT
speaking of which, does anyone know if there is there a thread or a section or anything around here devoted to freaks, oddities, and curious bits? I'm not particularly good at negotiating with search engines... :-( Will Errors and Oddities suffice?
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 2, 2018 20:08:14 GMT
speaking of which, does anyone know if there is there a thread or a section or anything around here devoted to freaks, oddities, and curious bits? I don't know of one - I've posted a few screwballs in the past (like this post showing a couple of oddities from Brazil) but generally in the correct country page or some other thread that was specific to some discussion that was already underway. Oh well. Go ahead and start a thread, then there will be one! And in that regard, there are also things I've posted in the past that I can't find, and here's one of them which kind of sort of almost fits in with the current "discoloured" theme. How did this happen? Is it an actual albino (mostly, there's a little bit of ink remaining on the design) or has somebody figured out how to remove the stamp design ink without removing the precancel ink? Thanks for your post, Ryan! As it happens, at this point, I think that I may be able to answer your question. I double-checked, just to be sure, and the US 6-cent Garfield definitive was originally printed as a red orange stamp. In fact, I am sure that I have some pretty deeply orange colored examples of this stamp back in California. Noticing a color theme here? Despite the fact that Nelson's reference mentions that several colors may exhibit signs of discoloration due to sulphuration, it certainly seems from this thread, that orange-colored stamps are especially susceptible. First the German stamp, then my French stamp, and now your US stamp, all are orange in original color. The dealer here in France told me something about using hydrogen peroxide to restore the orange color on these stamps. He said to be very careful with the amount of time the stamp spent in the peroxide, because if left too long, the color would dissolve and disappear completely. Ryan, I think that that is exactly what happened to your stamp. In the upper part of the stamp, there is still a little ink remaining, and what is there looks brown, not orange. So, my guess is that your stamp was sulphuretted and then put into a hydrogen peroxide solution to try to restore the orange color, but was left long enough that the ink dissolved altogether, leaving your albino result. This is just a guess based on the dealer's comments, but it seems to make sense, at least to me! And in just the same way that a stamp printed in fugitive ink will have its design dissolve and disappear when soaked in water, the postmark or precancel would remain. Does that make sense? What do you think?
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ajkitt
Member
Posts: 175
What I collect: Classics, Central Europe, World
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Post by ajkitt on Oct 3, 2018 21:31:16 GMT
speaking of which, does anyone know if there is there a thread or a section or anything around here devoted to freaks, oddities, and curious bits? I'm not particularly good at negotiating with search engines... :-( Will Errors and Oddities suffice? Why, that would be perfect! :-)
Thanks Boss, Andy
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tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,053
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Oct 31, 2018 21:15:04 GMT
Stamps aren't the only things that discolor -- I recently acquired this cover in a small lot of covers containing military-themed stamps and cachets. Enclosed in the cover was a stiffener (shown below) that caused the discoloration. If you have covers with stiffeners in them that aren't acid-free, I strongly recommend that you remove them.

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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 4, 2021 8:07:28 GMT
For Canada's Imperial Penny Postage (aka The Map Stamp), the changelings with this issue René ( renden ) are in fact - oxidation; like rust, i.e. the oxidation of metal.
Unlike other sulphuretted or sulphurized stamps that have been previously mentioned where the discolouration is at the ink's surface, here the blue/lavender ocean inks have actually had a chemical reaction with a metallic component in the ink used and something in the environment; now it is part of the overall structure and no amount of hydrogen peroxide will change or reverse that. It is interesting to note that of the four plates used in the printing of this issue, Plate 3 has the most examples or likelihood of this phenomena.
Quoting to move post to a related discussion thread on colour changelings.
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 4, 2021 8:19:12 GMT
Hi, Vince ( stanley64): Please see previous post in this thread, which is a quote of one of yours from the Canada 1898 Map Stamp thread. I didn't want to clutter that fine thread with a tangential discussion about colour changelings. Please accept my apologies for being so slow off the mark on your post from 13th Dec. I missed it at the time, and only just happened upon it recently. I am very interested to learn more about this other process (i.e. not sulphuretting) that results in colour changes that you mentioned to René ( renden) in that post. When I tried to access the link you provided, I couldn't get it to work. So, before I start asking questions, I thought I would ask if you are able to restore or repair the link to the reference? I would like to read that first to try to better understand what you have described as "oxidation; like rust". Can you help? Many thanks!
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Beryllium Guy
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Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 5, 2021 10:36:14 GMT
Vince ( stanley64), I made the above post in August, when you were away from TSF, so I believe that you never saw it at that time. Are you in a position to respond now? Many thanks, Chris
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,593
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Oct 5, 2021 12:58:54 GMT
Hello Chris( Beryllium Guy); no it would appear that that URL is no longer available. Even the Wayback Machine does not have a record of the website or its contents.
I will have a look through my own notes and saved pages to see what I can find. For now, you may find some useful reading in the back issues of the British North America Philatelic Society's Map Stamp Study Group's newsletters than can be found here.
Let me see what I can turn up; vis-à-vis the changlings...
Happy collecting!
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tomiseksj
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Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,053
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
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Post by tomiseksj on Oct 5, 2021 16:09:01 GMT
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stanley64
Member
Posts: 1,593
What I collect: Canada, USA, Netherlands, Portugal & Colonies, Antarctic Territories and anything that catches my eye...
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Post by stanley64 on Oct 6, 2021 9:32:24 GMT
Thanks for posting Steve( tomiseksj ); the link does not show all the content referenced but at least it gives individuals reading the thread an idea of what is being discussed, i.e. sulphuration vs. oxidation. Fortunately, my notes are more complete and I have shared them with Chris ( Beryllium Guy ). Happy collecting!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,168
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 23, 2022 13:33:00 GMT
Discoloration Due to Reaction with Sulphur (Sulfur) & its TreatmentIn the Cape of Good Hope: Stamps thread, there has recently been a detailed discussion about discoloration of Cape triangles and what can be done about it. Jim ( jkjblue ) has done some nice research and has posted some good info there, and for purposes of future reference, I wanted to post some of that info into this thread, where members may be looking for it. Jim wrote: Jim also cited a Stamp Smarter article as follows: I hope that the above info is self-explanatory, but if any members have further questions about assessing whether discoloration is due to sulfuretting or another cause, and if treatment is possible or desirable, I hope that you will post here. Also, thanks to Jim, there are now many nice examples of before-and-after images of blue Cape triangles that have been successfully treated with hydrogen peroxide to restore their original color. This has been very helpful, because in some cases, the previous owner of the material misidentified a stamp as the discoloration was mistaken for a different shade of blue. Thanks again to Jim for doing this research and posting this valuable information for everyone!
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