philatelia
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Post by philatelia on Dec 16, 2023 18:43:21 GMT
I could only find an few examples of bullseye type cancels in my nascent DWI collection, none appear to have a wedge missing. I do have a question about these - they look so different. Heavy vs light inking or different varieties would you say laeding ? Beryllium Guy vikingeck ? EDIT - query is about the 5 bit greens below.Thanks! It’s wonderful to see this DWI thread resurrected!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 16, 2023 18:59:19 GMT
Thanks for your post, Terri ( philatelia)! It's an interesting observation. I just took a look at my collection, and my 5-bit example appears more like your left-hand copy. I checked my duplicates, and I don't have any of the 5-bit for comparison. But I do have several copies of the 10-bit red from the same series, and at a glance, I could see the same sort of color variation as shown in your 5-bit examples. Based on that very small sample size, my best guess is that the difference could well be caused by over or under-inking. Hopefully, laeding or vikingeck may be able to comment further based on their depths of experience.
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Dec 16, 2023 19:09:10 GMT
One delivery of the imperf 3c arrived in St Thomas stuck together having suffered from dampness on the voyage. They were soaked and regummed locally with something resembling molasses. This stained the paper of a large proportion dark brown which might explain at least one of your 3cent .
you should never try to compare used and unused for colour strength. Who knows what rigours the used stamp has suffered? Sunlight exposure , soaking, wear and tear .
as far as I know the shade differences apart from the 3c are not regarded as significant varieties.
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,654
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Dec 16, 2023 19:19:52 GMT
Sorry about the confusion - I was wondering about the 5 bit greens, not the 3c. I posted the pics of the 3c for the cancels.
I am thinking over/under inking, too. Notice how the green is shifted on the first copy, too.
That story about the molasses gum is fascinating. Very interesting!
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Dec 16, 2023 19:42:27 GMT
The green shift is interesting , the stamps in this series are printed in two stages …..frame and portrait vignette, most other values are bi coloured of course, and so not always perfect registration.
The fact that the print is a two stage process might indicate lesser ink intensity in the frame as the colour in the vignettes look more similar than the frames do, though I do incline to aging wear and tear. ( I mean in the stamps …….not in me !)
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laeding
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What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 16, 2023 21:53:28 GMT
Hi, @beryllium guy! Thanks for your post!
I'm not sure when or who began calling this the "wedge cancel," perhaps G.A. Hagememann (or Caröe?) as he was an early expert in DWI (I have his 3-volume set -- might have to dig into it). The 14 Cent example you shared is a very nice example of a stamp that was fiscally canceled for accounting purposes at the post office and never entered the post. Fiscally canceled DWI stamps feature numerous strikes of the canceler as the postal clerk would cancel numerous stamps on the sheet on the corners. They were allowed to be sold by a postal clerk to collectors and dealers to make some extra pocket money and can be found with gum. The classic 4 Cent along with the 3 and 4 Cents bicolors were often fiscally canceled, too. Regarding the 14 Cent issue, I believe only one cover is known pre-UPU, and 2 post-UPU, and the stamp was only to be used on mail to Europe via the German lines.
Regarding relative value, the fiscally canceled stamps are "valued" lower than one with a circular dated stamp, but any canceled 14 Cent stamp is tougher to come by than a mint copy. Your copy is much nicer than the typical fiscally canceled copies out there (great color, good perfs, and nice strikes) as this stamp was easily damaged due to the very thin paper it was printed on.
I can put together a post about the 14 Cent stamp if it would be helpful, and show French, CDS, and fiscal cancels. I don't have a 14 Cent copy (yet) with the "UTILSTRÆKKELIGT FRANKERET" but it does exist and i've been outbid the handful of times I've seen them.
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laeding
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What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 16, 2023 22:08:21 GMT
Hi, vikingeck, The boxed "UTILSTRÆKKELIGT FRANKERET" (insufficient franking) was used on both the 7 and 14 Cents stamps in the St. Thomas post office for about three months in late 1875 and was used for accounting purposes. There are no recorded usages of it on mail (as per Arnold Sorensen) and there was a similar hand stamp in Denmark. Whole sheets of 7 Cent stamps would be canceled and the cancel would cover three stamps, and it was known applied horizontally and vertically. As with the fiscally canceled stamps, a post office clerk was allowed to sell the stamps/sheets. According to Sorensen, "this practice was documented by a response from the St. Thomas Postmaster to the Danish authorities after a German stamp dealer inquired why large multiples of the 7 Cent stamps were available with full gum, and then he ceased this practice (or least stopped selling the stamps)." This cancel is challenging to find, and pairs/strips of three command a premium as they are definitely hard to find!
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laeding
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Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 16, 2023 22:14:10 GMT
philatelia, the Frederik VIII 5-Bit issue had two printings, thus two different shades of green. Neither worth more than the other. Looks like the printings were in even quantities for the 5 Bit. 5 Bit -- Two printings 10 Bit -- Three printings 15 Bit -- Three printings 20 Bit -- Two printings 25 Bit -- Four Printings 30 Bit -- Two Printings 40 Bit -- Two Printings 50 Bit -- Two printings The 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 Bit issues can also be found with inverted watermarks, which are not easy to find!!
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laeding
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What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 16, 2023 22:27:21 GMT
vikingeck , regarding the first 3 Cent issue, most of the sheets were indeed stuck together. The pharmacists in Christiansted and St. Thomas were paid to soak and remove the gum, and reapply gum. Each pharmacist used gum arabic, and those with the "brown" gum came out of Christiansted first and those stamps are often stained. The St. Thomas pharmacist, Albert Heinrich Riise, was supposedly unimpressed with the quality of the gum of his counterpart (F. Benzon) and applied a higher quality gum arabic, thus the "yellow" gum. Those with brown gum are more plentiful than yellow gum. This "re-gumming" was authorized by the Danish government. A.H. Riise is a relative of mine. I can post more on this later!
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laeding
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What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 17, 2023 6:23:07 GMT
Here's a better explanation of fiscal cancels -- I had to look into some reference material to make sure it is presented properly! Specifically, I checked "Danish West Indies Mails" (Victor Engstrom) and "Danish West Indies Postage Stamps and Postal Markings, 1856-1917" (Arnold Sorensen) along with some info from the DWI Study Group of the Scandinavian Collectors Club. The Danish West Indies wanted all mail to foreign destinations to be turned in at a DWI post office, and it originally charged 4 cents per letter (later changed to 3 cents). Mail sent via the British Post Office did not pay this fee as it had its own arrangement with DWI. The DWI post office would cancel the envelope with the circular date stamp cancel, but it did not affix a stamp to the envelope. At the end of the month the post office balanced the money collected in cash vs. the stamps used, so it simply canceled sheets and partial sheets of stamps it had in stock -- these are the "fiscal cancels," and those stamps have multiple cancels, often in each corner, and the cancels were not "neatly" applied so many stamps have "smudgy" cancels. Stamps with fiscal cancels are common. The 3 and 4 Cent "classic" stamps along with the first printings of the 3, 4, and 7 Cents issues along with the 14 Cents issue were put to fiscal use. The cancel was either the "5-ring with small dot" or the "wedge" cancel. Hope this helps a bit!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 17, 2023 16:36:33 GMT
laedingI just wanted to say thank you for all the informative posts you made yesterday. That was some very good information about how the stamps were used and the resulting fiscal cancels, as my 14c copy seems to illustrate. Just an observation: it seems to me that they went way overboard on the fiscal-cancelling practices. If these were later sold to collectors, I would have thought that using the circular cancel in one corner to put a quarter-circle on each of four stamps would have been much more efficient. They certainly would have looked better, with the idea that the stamps were eventually going to be sold to collectors. By the way, if you are interested to see how I was able to clean up the DWI 14c from its original state, which was completely pasted down to an old album page with dark brown glue, please have a peek at this thread on "philatelic surgery": thestampforum.boards.net/post/165401/threadNow that you have explained about the practice and resulting appearance of DWI fiscal cancels during this time, I can see that there is at least one other example of a fiscal cancel (4c) in that small lot. All of the stamps in that small lot were fully pasted down to the page remnant with dark brown mucilage glue. They were a real mess, and fortunately for me, all were salvaged successfully. The 3c numeral was already damaged, but all of the other stamps turned out to be in sound condition, a real stroke of luck for me. I also appreciate your comment that the paper on which the 14c was printed is very thin. I noticed that, too, as I was going through the soaking and press-flattening process, and I was very concerned about handling it safely. Luckily, it worked out in this case! Anyway, thank you very much for all of the new information you have provided about the condition of these stamps and the fiscal-cancelling process in particular.
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laeding
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Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 18, 2023 4:00:51 GMT
Beryllium Guy Thanks for providing the link to "philatelic surgery," you deserve a medal for saving that 14 Cents!!! Very impressed with the outcomes of all of those stamps! Also, it looks like the 10 Cents has the red "Paid St. Thomas" cancel -- not common! There are some nice varieties in the images of the stamps you shared, have you identified them yet? The obvious being the very nice 7 Cents pair with inverted & normal frames. The 7 Cents issue is my personal favorite!
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 18, 2023 4:25:47 GMT
philatelia , You also shared some great looking stamps! There may be a variety on one of the overprints, I'll check it out more closely when I can see it on a better screen. As for the stamps you posted with the "bullseye" cancel, that cancel is quite common and I don't believe it had any defects while in use.
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 18, 2023 20:18:49 GMT
laedingMany thanks for your kind response. I am glad that enjoyed seeing the “philatelic surgery” on the small DWI lot that included the 14c. To tell the truth, I enjoy these sorts of little salvage projects, and I am especially proud of how well the DWI lot turned out. Thanks for your further comments about some of my other DWI stamps, both from the salvage lot as well as the rest of my collection. Yes, I did know about the 7c pair, and in fact, it was correctly identified by the eBay seller in the listing, and I had also checked it. I normally don’t collect pairs, but this one was cheaper than other single copies, so I grabbed it when I had the chance. I haven’t checked for other less-common varieties in my DWI collection, so if you spot any interesting ones, please feel free to let me know. No rush, just when time permits. I had noticed the red cancel on the 10c, but had no idea it was a PAID LONDON mark. Are you able to post a better example that shows what a good strike would look like? Thanks much for that info!
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 22, 2023 5:50:16 GMT
Beryllium Guy, the "8 CENTS/10 CENTS" local overprint features the "long E in VEST." Take a look at the base of the E, and you'll see that there is "a little bit extra" there. This is 26v16 in Facit and 19t in AFA. The 4 CENTS and 10 CENTS postage dues have a small dot to the upper left of the "I" in "IND," which means they are from one of the first two printings, while the 1 CENT is from the 3rd or 4th printing and the 6 CENTS is from the 3rd printing (there wasn't a 4th). There are also shade differences to further identify the printings, but this is easier to do with "stamps in hand." Postage dues without gum are likely used as they weren't typically canceled, meaning canceled stamps are far less common. Fakes/forgeries are very, very common and range from poor quality to quite good!
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 22, 2023 6:07:41 GMT
philatelia, It looks like the "2 CENTS/3CENTS" may have the "straight foot/tail" variety in the "2" of 1902. This would be Scott 24a; Facit 24v1; AFA 18Byz. There are 8 per sheet of 100. When you have a free moment, check it out!
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 22, 2023 6:50:03 GMT
Beryllium Guy, Below are images of the red cancels I had mentioned regarding the 10 CENTS bicolor shown in your "Philatelic Surgery" post. I initially stated that it may be a "Paid London" cancel, but I should have said it may be one of the British "Paid (at) St. Thomas" cancels used for pre-paid mail. They can also be found in black ink, though not common and are believed to be clerical errors as they were to be struck in red. The "crowned circles" were in use from 1849-1877, while the "circles" were in use from 1863-1877 (DWI Mails, Engstrom). The image below is from the 1997 DAKA (Erik Paaskesen).
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rod222
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Post by rod222 on Dec 22, 2023 7:27:55 GMT
Forgeries exist of the 1874 Issue 1, 3, 4, 7, 14 Cents
No Watermark and No Hyphen between DANSK and VESTINDISKE
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 27, 2023 1:55:48 GMT
Beryllium Guy , Here is a (partial) example of the red "London Paid" cancel along with the British St. Thomas C51 duplex cancel. I still have a feeling that I've seen red "London Paid" with a DWI stamp and will do some digging around... Scanned the "London Paid" postmark from "The Postal History of the United States Virgin Islands" by J. Alfred Birch (the clipping is mine!).
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Beryllium Guy
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Dec 27, 2023 18:32:05 GMT
Forgeries exist of the 1874 Issue 1, 3, 4, 7, 14 Cents
No Watermark and No Hyphen between DANSK and VESTINDISKE Quite right, Rod. As you haven't shown any details about the features of those forgeries, aside from mentioning the missing hyphen and watermark, I would also mention that the printing and lettering on those forgeries is pretty poor, and it becomes obvious that there is a problem if you compare one of the forgeries side by side with a genuine example. Almost all of the 14c I have ever seen on eBay have been forgeries. The one I bought and salvaged was the first genuine example I ever saw on the site. There are also forgeries of many of the other DWI stamps, including the later Numeral Issues and the postage dues. On the later Numeral Issues, the quality of those forgeries is generally much better than the earlier ones with the missing hyphen. See example below: Danish West Indies, 1877 Numeral Issue Genuine versus Forgery Personal notations: The color of the vignette has much more yellow in it than the genuine ones, which are more blue-green, at least to my eye. I also note that the "/" through the "O" in OER is missing, as is the period "." after CENTS. Also, the "S" in CENTS is misshapen, and it looks more like a numeral 5 or an inverted and reversed "2" than a proper "S", again, at least to my eye. Perhaps others can spot more differences.... Source: stampforgeries.com/forged-stamps-of-danish-west-indies/Many thanks to TSF Member Morten ( classicalstamps ), who is the founder and owner of the Stamp Forgeries website, a great resource!
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Dec 28, 2023 1:04:50 GMT
Quite right, Rod. As you haven't shown any details about the features of those forgeries, aside from mentioning the missing hyphen and watermark, I would also mention that the printing and lettering on those forgeries is pretty poor, and it becomes obvious that there is a problem if you compare one of the forgeries side by side with a genuine example. Almost all of the 14c I have ever seen on eBay have been forgeries. The one I bought and salvaged was the first genuine example I ever saw on the site. Cheers BG, My source was Album Weeds I didn't think the image was clear enough for here.
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 28, 2023 3:09:38 GMT
The 12 Cents forgery in Album Weeds is one of the best ones of the bunch for DWI, and I've never come across one personally. I'll post some that I have of the other values, and these aren't as "bad" as some others out there.
There are several "printings" of the first series of postage dues, ranging from the "super-obvious" to reasonably good. There are a number of them listed on eBay right now -- I email the sellers (they've always taken them down) and share with them how to identify them. I've come across numerous lots with fakes mixed in with genuine copies, too. I don't think I have any of the "better" fakes anymore -- gave them away to other collectors awhile back, but I do have some of the lesser ones.
The fakes for the second series of postage dues are much less obvious, and I've seen them offered by very reputable dealers as being genuine and I'll post them.
Fortunately, fakes aren't really much of an issue for DWI as most are very obvious. One would think that the overprints would be faked, but I've never heard of this being the case!
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 28, 2023 4:59:13 GMT
The postage dues below consist of genuine stamps and fakes, with the Bit fakes being much less common than the fakes of the "Cents" dues. There are multiple printings of each of the Bit values, so color alone may not offer clues. So, what do we look for? The genuine issues are perfed 12.75 x 12.75 (Scott lists them as perf 13), while the fakes are about 12 x 12. Note the 50 Bit is also found perfed 14 x 14.5 and is less common. The ornaments (swastikas) of the fakes are not as well-defined as the genuine copies. The left and right sides of the "numeral tablets" are more clearly "scalloped" on the genuine stamps.
I purchased this "fake set" as "genuine" awhile back knowing they were fakes. The price asked was reasonable for a genuine set, and it was the nicest set of fakes of this issue I had come across, so I didn't hesitate to buy them and then share with the dealer the differences. I knew the dealer well and felt no need to "haggle" the price down. Sitting on a stock card or in an album on its own, this is a very, very easy set to overlook.
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 28, 2023 5:33:05 GMT
Here are a few more of the "fake" bicolors... The fake 7 Cents is one of the better fake bicolors I've come across and bought. It even has a certificate proclaiming it to be "totally false!" On its own, though, it could be overlooked as it has much better perfs than normally found and the phony "barrel cancel" is fairly light and doesn't obliterate the piece. Far left: 1st Printing with Hamburg "sausage" cancel. Next: El Fake-o Next: 2nd Printing, thick normal frame with "Caroe's Cut" (position 72). Far right: 2nd Printing. Sulfurized to the max!
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Dec 30, 2023 1:10:24 GMT
Here's a set currently listed on eBay where only the first stamp is genuine:
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Jan 6, 2024 5:30:50 GMT
Here's a fun postmark from Puerto Rico / Porto Rico! Notice anything odd?
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 6, 2024 8:31:43 GMT
Here's a fun postmark from Puerto Rico / Porto Rico! Notice anything odd? The Date : 30th February 1857
February 30 has been a real date at least twice in history. February 30 happened in Sweden in 1712 .
Sweden added the date to its 1712 calendar following an earlier calendar error; The Soviet Union observed February 30 in 1930 and 1931 in an attempt to cut seven-day weeks into five-day weeks and to introduce 30-day months for every working month.
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laeding
**Member**
Posts: 39
What I collect: Specialize in Danish West Indies. Also collect Scandinvaia.
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Post by laeding on Jan 12, 2024 4:02:06 GMT
Printed by Felix Rasco in Caracas, these examples are from a set of 4 believed to have been issued in 1870 (according to both Facit and The Private Ship Letters of the World (TPSL) by Ringstrōm & Tester). As per Engstrom's "Danish West Mails," vol. 3, there were three known denominations (omitting the red "Dos Reales). "DWI Mails" lists the colors differently than Facit and TPSL. Looks to have been an error in DWI Mails.
DWI Mails further states:
"...they may have been unaccepted essays of German origin, pointing out that their design was similar to some of the German issues for private posts," continuing with "...they were probably printed for a Venezuelan service filling in the gap from May 1870 until the Royal Steam Packet Company resumed service that year."
Contradicting the previous statement, the blue 2 Reales is known with part of a Spanish language newspaper adhered to the back having portions of a blue circular cancelation on its face (D.A. West Collection). This is mentioned in both DWI Mails and TPSL. A "clip" from FACIT is below.
I believe these were purchased from one of the Danish auction houses some time ago. Both DWI Mails and TPSL calls the issue "Mystery Stamps."
If anyone has more insight into these, please post and share!!!
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rod222
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What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Jan 12, 2024 7:05:32 GMT
laeding Listed in Klaseboer San Tomas La Guaira (identical stamps as the ones you show) Essays? essays or bogus , mentions all 4 colours Probably printed by the same printer as the 1864 due to identical perf methods. "They are very rare"
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