Ryan
Moderator 
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,749 
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on May 1, 2020 18:49:04 GMT
I wish I knew exactly what it looked like!  There sure aren't very many good images of stitch watermarks on the internet. Here's one of the few I've found which is more-or-less clear - I've nabbed it from the DGL Philatelics page on Nova Scotian 10 cent stamps. As with most watermarks, sometimes they're almost impossible to see without some sort of detection aid, but sometimes you can see them fairly easily.  The Canadian Stamp News has an article which goes into some detail about how stitch watermarks are formed. Have a look at that - it explains how the watermark is essentially accidental in nature. They've been found on Canadian stamps right up to the KGV Admiral era, so certainly any German States issues would have the potential for stitch watermarks, I would think. Ryan |
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Post by marking on May 1, 2020 19:47:17 GMT
if anyone has one of the watermarked ones, please, please show me what they look like - I'm yet to find any I've heard it said that all the genuine ones are signed by now, but it seems that's just not true 1. I would be concerned with any German "signed stamps". Look up Blum Case - a dealer who faked 650 postmarks & 50 expert signatures on metal stamps. It changed a lot in the world of German expertization. 2. The stitch watermark that I am familiar with is not a true watermark and VERY random. It appears on several countries and when expertized adds much value but I am not sure exactly why it should As far as I know it is from the paper making - the wet paper passes on a mesh and the mesh sections might be "stitched" together leaving an impression in the paper It may appear anywhere and might be vertical or horizontal  |
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stainlessb
Member 
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jun 16, 2020 20:24:27 GMT
Today's find- unlabeled paper envelope  Here's a closer look at what may or may not be a real #1 
Found a couple more!  |
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 4, 2022 17:29:01 GMT
Baden, Sc1-28
Pre-German Empire Era, 1851-1869
Arranged on Hagner Stock SheetI had the occasion this past year to pull some of my German States issues together, and Baden is one of my favorites since its principal city, Karlsruhe, has been a frequent destination of mine over the past decade or so. Most of the earliest stamps shown below were purchased from a dealer in Karlsruhe during some of my visits there from 2017-2019. I should start getting busy and trying to add to this collection, as I like these stamps very much.  Row 1: Header (reproduction, but as it appeared in album originally published c.1901-1910) Row 2: Baden, Sc1-4 Row 3: Baden, Sc6-9 (there is no Sc5) Row 4: Baden, Sc10, Sc12, Perf 13½ (missing Sc13-14; there is no Sc11) Row 5: (missing Sc15-18) Row 6: Baden, Sc20, 3-kr Rose, Perf 10 (missing Sc19, Sc22-25; there is no Sc21) Row 7: Baden, Sc26 & Sc28 (missing Sc27) Row 8: (missing ScLJ1-LJ3, Rural Postage Due Stamps)
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Feb 4, 2022 19:42:00 GMT
Nice display, Chris!(Beryllium Guy )
I was in Karlsruhe a number of times, living just south of there for a few years. But my collecting days were coming to an end then, so I never searched out for any stamp dealers. Sounds like I missed out!
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Feb 4, 2022 22:21:57 GMT
Here's a closer look at what may or may not be a real #1 Stan, please accept my apologies for not responding before now to your post from Jun-2020. I don't know if you were able to draw any conclusions on this, but I would just comment that Baden, Sc1 is 1kr Black on Dark Buff paper, and Sc6 is 1kr Black on White or slightly Off-White paper. I am not really learned in the printing aspects to distinguish the details in the originals from the reprints or forgeries, but I do know that a genuine Baden #1 needs to be on dark buff paper. Please have a closer look at the Sc1 and Sc6 in the scan that I have posted. I think that yours is much more likely an Sc6 than an Sc1. In fact, I believe that our former member marking mentioned about the so-called "Coffee Fakes" which were made by staining copies of Baden #6 in a cup of coffee to make the white paper resemble the dark buff of Baden #1. I think that there are other differences, but the paper is the first one that jumps out when considering whether 1kr stamps are #1 or #6. I hope this helps.  |
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hdm1950
Member
Posts: 1,886
What I collect: I collect world wide up to 1965 with several specialty albums added due to volume of material I have acquired. At this point I am focused on Canada and British America. I am always on the lookout for stamps and covers with postmarks from communities in Queens County, Nova Scotia. I do list various goods including stamps occasionally on eBay as hdm50
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Post by hdm1950 on Feb 4, 2022 23:16:48 GMT
Beryllium Guy Chris your presentation is very nice and clean. It accentuates the limitations of albums like my big blue. Even my modest collection of Baden has been jammed in by my father and I. I am surprised that I could actually fill several holes for you but I am afraid I am not ready to down size even though they would be happier in your handsome layout.
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Post by greaden on Feb 4, 2022 23:37:17 GMT
I should pay more attention to Baden. It is a country I completed and moved on, instead of getting into the weeds. But that first row is among the most magical stamps ever produced, anywhere. This thread temps me to get into its varieties.
But its postmarks do not have the traits that excite me in collecting the marks of Germany pre-unification. The postmarks of Thurn and Taxis tell stories of forgotten countries off the radar of organized philately. Brunswick's postmarks tell a story of a country splattered across the map. Prussia's tell of a country that gobbled off bits of its neighbors, formed unified Germany, but much of its realm are now in very different countries. Prussia, for me, has the same appeal as Austria.
But Baden? It just sat there during the period when it was producing its own stamps.
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 7,213
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Aug 29, 2023 18:30:51 GMT
Two new arrivals today, Baden MiNr. 8 and 24:  |
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 7,213
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Sept 18, 2023 17:48:38 GMT
New arrival today, a copy of the MiNr. 5, on piece:  |
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Post by coiledragon on Oct 12, 2023 19:06:17 GMT
Hello, I have recently acquired a Baden sc #1a. Though to me it more looks like SC #1 or #6. I wonder if anyone could help me to identify it. Thanks a lot! Coiled Dragon   |
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 606
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Oct 13, 2023 2:34:53 GMT
I collect Baden a little--mostly with Pforzheim cancels, no. 109s--but barely know anything. |
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Post by gstamps on Oct 13, 2023 11:56:17 GMT
Hi coiledragon I do not have this stamp in my collection and therefore no expertise. Some information from specialized Michel may or may not help you. I hope I correctly equated the Scott catalog numbers you refer to (1, 1a and 6) Scott 1a = Printing color deep black, glossy and good coverage; partly translucent, thin, smooth paper. Paper with yellowish gray shades. Scott 1 = Printing color gray-black to black, matt and less opaque; non-translucent, stronger, rough paper. Paper with brownish yellow shades Scott 6 = White paper - that's all I have - there are some examples in this thread. I think your stamp does not have white paper (attention Scott 6 can be soaked in tea or coffee and can take this color) I don't think there are many Scott 1a stamps left unexamined (examined stamps have a mark on the reverse) The black color (from what I think I see in your picture) I don't think corresponds to Scott 1a. You can check the thickness of the paper (0.05 - 0.06 mm for Scott 1a) and if you can see something from the drawing on the back (the paper of Scott 1a is partially translucent, unlike Scott 1 and 6) |
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Post by coiledragon on Oct 14, 2023 23:29:17 GMT
Thanks a lot Gstamps for the so detailed information. I have not got the stamp yet. But managed to download a picture of the back of the stamp. It looks like signed by Cross. Is he a expert or the former owner? Thanks. Coiled Dragon  |
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Post by coiledragon on Oct 14, 2023 23:34:33 GMT
Today I purchased another lot of Baden stamps. The seller offered a price I could not resist. Anyway. Here is the photo of the lot. What do you guys think?   |
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,506
Member is Online
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Post by salentin on Oct 15, 2023 12:22:36 GMT
To me your 1 Kreuzer stamp is clearly Michel No.5 on white paper.
Here are mine:
Mi.no.1b
Mi.no.5
I am fairly sure that the Mi.no.1b is authentic,as it is signed "W.Engel" (german expert).
Do not want to comment about the shown lot.
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Post by gstamps on Oct 15, 2023 15:03:44 GMT
Hi coiledragon I found on "stampsx.com" a scan with the 4 types of stamps: from left to right: 5, 1b, 1a and 1bND (Michel numbers)  Through photo processing I reduced the image, but if you are interested in help in identifying your stamps, sign up on "stampsx.com" - it is difficult to communicate in German, but you will find members with great experience and excellent images. |
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hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 7,213
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
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Post by hrdoktorx on Oct 21, 2023 15:09:14 GMT
Waiting for me in the mailbox today, this Baden MiNr. 9 exemplar, 1 kr. black with lined background, on piece:  |
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drakken
**Member** 
Posts: 6
What I collect: Germany
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Post by drakken on Feb 11, 2024 15:28:06 GMT
Question... the secret marks, must be ONE enough? Or it must be the three at each stamp? It is really a good proxy for forgeries?
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drakken
**Member**
Posts: 6
What I collect: Germany
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Post by drakken on Feb 11, 2024 18:39:16 GMT
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Hugh
Member
Posts: 740
What I collect: Worldwide Occupation Stamps and Postal History; and, anything that looks interesting.
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Post by Hugh on Oct 20, 2024 3:40:26 GMT
I really enjoyed reading this thread. Here's an 1857 Baden cover I've been working on this evening. It was sent from Mannheim (I think) to Nidda. I think it was Mannheim for two reasons. One, It has a five-ring numbered obliterator with, to my eyes, 87 in the centre. I used a Bridger and Kay cancellation gauge to find the centre and IMO the centering suggests that there are only two digits. I then used various digital filters to clean it up a bit and it looks to me like 87. The 7 especially is pretty clear. 87 is the number for Mannheim. Two, There is a rectangular cancel with town name and date. It's hard to read the town name. However, I looked at every other number (whether two or three digits) that ended in a 7. Mannheim is the only name that 'fits' ... again IMO. It appears to begin with an 'M' ... also the number of letters and the one or two that are more visible seem to correspond nicely. I would vallue other opinions, corrections or suggestions. In any event, the cancel is dated 5 SEP. And, from the transit and arrival cancels on the other side, the year was 1857. The stamp, which has three nice sides well-trimmed to the frame line, is a 6Kr. Mr.Nr. 7. Printed in black on yellow paper in 1853. Baden used a 'secret mark' on the 6Kr. stamp -- a small notch on the border of the circular centre design with the numeral. It is supposed to be right below the dot after the figure. Because of the heavy obliteration, I can't see it.  The back of the cover has a transit stamp from Frankfurt [am Main] ... dated September 5, 1857. Frankfurt was about 150K [~90 miles] north of Mannheim. It is reasonable that it would have arrived on the same day, by train. On October 1, 1858, the postage rate for domestic mail was reduced to 6Kr for all letters over 10 miles. It is curious that this letter was sent a year earlier with a 6Kr. stamp. My understanding is that in 1857, the postage rate would have been 9Kr. for letters over 30 miles. Again, corrections welcome. There is also an arrival cancel from Nidda dated the next day. Nidda is about 40K [25 miles] NE of Frankfurt.  |
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 20, 2024 5:13:22 GMT
Hugh The stamp, which has three nice sides well-trimmed to the frame line, is a 6Kr. Mr.Nr. 7.
Printed in black on yellow paper in 1853. Baden used a 'secret mark' on the 6Kr. stamp --
a small notch on the border of the circular centre design with the numeral. It is supposed
to be right below the dot after the figure. Because of the heavy obliteration, I can't see it.
Hi, could not see it on my example ? (Not my stamp) The roses in the corner, are clear which has me believe this is a genuine Looks like "Chrome Yellow" 
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Post by gstamps on Oct 20, 2024 6:05:39 GMT
Hugh, IMO it's Mannheim. I found it on the "stampsx" site:  It would be nice to post it on this site: - you would receive a genuine/false rating - you would extend the period of known use (September 5, 1857)
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Hugh
Member
Posts: 740
What I collect: Worldwide Occupation Stamps and Postal History; and, anything that looks interesting.
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Post by Hugh on Oct 20, 2024 12:21:31 GMT
Hugh The stamp, which has three nice sides well-trimmed to the frame line, is a 6Kr. Mr.Nr. 7.
Printed in black on yellow paper in 1853. Baden used a 'secret mark' on the 6Kr. stamp --
a small notch on the border of the circular centre design with the numeral. It is supposed
to be right below the dot after the figure. Because of the heavy obliteration, I can't see it.
Hi, could not see it on my example ? (Not my stamp) Hi rod222 ... I got this information from a 1951 copy of the Mercury Stamp Journal. Here's the full paragrpah.  There is also this from Stampforgeries.com ... it's more recent and perhaps more helpful.  And, I assume this is an example?  |
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Hugh
Member
Posts: 740
What I collect: Worldwide Occupation Stamps and Postal History; and, anything that looks interesting.
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Post by Hugh on Oct 20, 2024 12:57:24 GMT
Hugh , IMO it's Mannheim. I found it on the "stampsx" site: It would be nice to post it on this site: - you would receive a genuine/false rating - you would extend the period of known use (September 5, 1857) Thanks Tudorache ... much appreciated. Thanks to an earlier suggestion, I had registered with Stampsx.com and have just started to use the postmark database. I have a lot of German philatelic vocabulary to learn (smile). I'm still feeling my way through the site. I haven't posted yet. If you want to upload this postmark ... feel free. Otherwise, I'll do it as soon and I figure out how Cheers, |
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,903
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Oct 20, 2024 14:22:59 GMT
gstamps stampsx looks like an interesting site,,,, I was able to register but mu confirm link gets me a 403 Forbidden Access error.... tried both Safari and Firefox I have sent an email asking for assistance
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Post by gstamps on Oct 20, 2024 17:56:33 GMT
Hugh, on my 6 Kr stamps the secret mark is slightly visible, unlike the 3 and 9 Kr.  For German philatelic terms you can find the translation: www.austrianphilately.com/german.htmstainlessb, the "stampsx" site is excellent in the images that look like in reality - the moderator recommends the settings for scanners and how to process the images, I think you would be interested.
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rod222
Member
Posts: 11,043
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps, Ephemera and Catalogues
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Post by rod222 on Oct 20, 2024 21:04:22 GMT
Thanks Hugh and gstamps Got it ! mine is like gstamps, the "notch' is very tiny Splendidly shown by the previous post by "Drakken" The "notches" position on all 4 values PS: I also had the "Mercury" monograph  |
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 606
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Oct 20, 2024 23:29:29 GMT
I really enjoyed reading this thread. Here's an 1857 Baden cover I've been working on this evening. It was sent from Mannheim (I think) to Nidda. I think it was Mannheim for two reasons.
Agreed, Mannheim 1857; you nailed that, certainly convinced me. Through Frankfurt to Nidda. Six Kreuzer because Frankfurt meant leaving Baden. And Nidda is in Hesse. So double-domestic, six kreuzer rate for a cross-border letter to a neighboring German state. |
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Hugh
Member
Posts: 740
What I collect: Worldwide Occupation Stamps and Postal History; and, anything that looks interesting.
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Post by Hugh on Oct 21, 2024 0:40:53 GMT
Hugh, you're braver than me. All it takes is a glance at Kurrent script and I scurry to my next project. Generally when doing Altdeutschland I opt for letters abroad--outside the Austrian-German Postal Union--since those usually are addressed in Latin script, something I can digest.
Agreed, Mannheim 1857; you nailed that, certainly convinced me. Through Frankfurt to Nidda. Six Kreuzer because Frankfurt meant leaving Baden. And Nidda is in Hesse. So double-domestic, six kreuzer rate for a cross-border letter to a neighboring German state. Thanks kasvik ... this summer I started working on understanding the postal rates, in France, during the French Revolution and under the First Empire. I also started working on the 19thC rates in GB and France. When I got stuck on one I moved to another country, or started on another project entirely, and then went back when I knew more. There is certainly no end of projects. I've recently started to explore and have fun with the German States. Fascinating. Way out of my depth, of course, but it is so cool to be doing this in 2024. I can't imagine how challenging it would have been to our colleagues in the 19th and for most of the 20th century. It would have taken months, years, to correspond with specialists and get information. Today, we benefit from more than 150 years of philatelic literature online and in libraries. The hard part is finding things (accurate things) in that mass of information. My goal is to create a vade mecum for my own study of the postal rates in Europe before 1840 and until about 1870 (after that, they seem to be readily available for most countries). Here, for example, is a conversation I had earlier this evening with ChatGPT using the o1-preview. I asked it about the postal rates on the above cover. It gave its answer in seven seconds. I don't think it's correct in all respects but it did remind me that the postal rates were calculated in 1857 based on the distance in Meilen. That helped explain a few things. It also said there was no charge for a letter crossing the border Baden to Hesse. As you pointed out the rate was doubled. The stamp on the cover, 6k, would support your observation and not the one from the AI. I'll inform it about this and see what it says. Cheers, Me:Hi, good evening. I'm doing a project that involves studying the postal rates for the German State of Baden during the 19th century. I'm trying to understand the postal rates for domestic letters sent within the state of Baden and outside Baden to other German states. Please search your knowledge base for information about this topic. Let's focus on the postal rates for a letter being sent from a town in Baden to Hesse in 1857. Can you provide the formula used to determine the rate? Would there have been a different rate if the letter was sent to an address within the boundaries of Baden. What, for example, would the likely route have been for a letter travelling from Mannheim in Baden to Nidda in Hesse? Would any extra changes have been payable? ChatGPTThought for 7 seconds Certainly! Let's delve into the specifics of the postal rates and logistics for a letter sent from Mannheim in Baden to Nidda in Hesse in 1857. 1. Postal Rates from Baden to Hesse in 1857Under the Austro-German Postal Union (AGPU): Both Baden and Hesse were members of the AGPU, established in 1850 to standardize and simplify postal rates among the German states and Austria. Standard Letter Rate: For a standard letter weighing up to 1 Loth (approximately 15.6 grams), the rate was determined by distance measured in German miles (Meilen). 2. Formula to Determine the RateRate Calculation Factors: Weight of the Letter:Up to 1 Loth: Standard rate applies. Over 1 Loth: Additional charges per extra Loth or fraction thereof. Distance Between Origin and Destination:Rates were structured in distance tiers: - Up to 10 Meilen
- Over 10 up to 20 Meiles
- Over 20 up to 30 Meilen, and so on.
Formula:Postal Rate = Base Rate for Weight Tier + Distance Tier Charge Applying the Formula:Weight: Assuming the letter is up to 1 Loth. Distance: The distance between Mannheim and Nidda is approximately 30 Meilen (rough estimate). Estimated Rate Tiers in Kreuzer: Up to 10 Meilen: 1 Kreuzer 10–20 Meilen: 2 Kreuzer 20–30 Meilen: 3 Kreuzer Each Additional 10 Meilen: Additional Kreuzer added Calculated Rate:For 30 Meilen, the rate would be approximately 3 Kreuzer for a standard letter up to 1 Loth. 3. Comparison to Domestic Rates within BadenDomestic Rates: Sending a letter within Baden would have been cheaper due to shorter distances and no inter-state charges. Example: A letter within Baden (up to 10 Meilen and up to 1 Loth) might cost 1 Kreuzer. Difference: Sending a letter to Hesse incurs higher charges due to greater distance and crossing into another member state, even under standardized AGPU rates. 4. Likely Route from Mannheim to NiddaGeographical Context: Mannheim: A major city in northwestern Baden, a significant postal hub due to its location on the Rhine River and railway connections. Nidda: A town in Hesse, located northeast of Frankfurt am Main. Probable Route:Mannheim to Frankfurt am Main:By Rail: The letter would likely be transported via the Main-Neckar Railway, connecting Mannheim to Frankfurt. Postal Exchange: Frankfurt was a major postal exchange point. Frankfurt am Main to Nidda:By Mail Coach or Local Rail: From Frankfurt, the letter would proceed northeast to Nidda. Local Postal Routes: Utilized for final delivery. 5. Extra Charges and ConsiderationsUnder the Austro-German Postal Union: Standardization: The AGPU eliminated many extra transit fees among member states. No Transit Charges: No additional fees for crossing into Hesse from Baden. Possible Extra Charges: Registration Fee:If the letter was sent as registered mail, an extra fee of 6 Kreuzer might apply. Express Delivery:For expedited delivery, additional charges were imposed, varying by distance. Heavier Letters: Over 1 Loth: Each additional Loth (or part thereof) incurred extra fees, possibly an additional 1 Kreuzer per Loth per distance tier. Summary of Charges:Standard Letter (up to 1 Loth): Approximately 3 Kreuzer With Registration: 3 Kreuzer (standard rate) + 6 Kreuzer (registration) = 9 Kreuzer Heavier Letter: Additional Kreuzer per extra Loth Additional NotesCurrency Conversion: 1 Gulden = 60 Kreuzer Weight Measurement: 1 Loth ≈ 15.6 grams Conclusions:- Different Rates: Yes, sending a letter within Baden was cheaper than sending one to Hesse due to distance and inter-state considerations, even under the AGPU's standardized system.
Formula Usage: The rate depended on both weight and distance, calculated using standardized tiers established by the AGPU. - Route Efficiency: The well-developed rail network in 1857 facilitated efficient postal routes between major cities like Mannheim and Frankfurt, and onward to towns like Nidda.
- No Extra Transit Charges: Thanks to the AGPU, no additional fees were charged for crossing into Hesse from Baden beyond the standardized rates.
Additional Services: Extra charges only applied for services like registration, express delivery, or for letters exceeding the standard weight.
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