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Post by jamesw on Nov 19, 2018 4:08:48 GMT
Picked this cover up today. Britain is not my area, but since it was crossing the pond to Upper Canada, thought I should give it a home Lets see if I get the postal markings correct. Here goes. First it sports an 1856 SC#27 - oddly trimmed of perfs on both sides. This is tied to the cover with an black oval Chief Office cancel #16 (Chigwell). On the back is a blue London cancel dated July 31 1857. The blue ink indicated it was processed in the evening. Besides the 6p paid with the stamp an additional 1p was due for insufficient postage and stamped in black also tying the stamp to the cover. This would be due on delivery. The front also shows a black clipped diamond stamp dated August 1 from the Liverpool office, just above the notation 'per mail steamer'. The red circle with cross indicates a foreign letter which was late due to being missorted. The 2 1/2 stamp in black would indicate Canadian postage due. 6d per half ounce as of 1851. Well, GB experts...how'd I do?
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Post by tallanent on Nov 19, 2018 9:14:57 GMT
First it sports an 1856 SC#27 - oddly trimmed of perfs on both sides. Besides the 6p paid with the stamp an additional 1p was due for insufficient postage and stamped in black also tying the stamp to the cover. This would be due on delivery.
Posted in one of the former London Penny Post Offices with the 1d being the inland postage - probably paid in cash The red circle with cross indicates a foreign letter which was late due to being missorted.
The red circle with cross was used on letters transferred to / from the penny or two penny post
This is tied to the cover with an black oval Chief Office cancel #16 (Chigwell).
The numeral 16 in diamond is a London Chief Office cancel (Not Chigwell)
On the back is a blue London cancel dated July 31 1857. The blue ink indicated it was processed in the evening. Although evening duty (due to delivery at Liverpool the following day), I am not aware that different colours were used for the various duties
The front also shows a black clipped diamond stamp dated August 1 from the Liverpool office, just above the notation 'per mail steamer'. This issued in Liverpool as an arrival / transit mark - known used from 15 June 150 to 5 December 1857 The 2 1/2 stamp in black would indicate Canadian postage due. 6d per half ounce as of 1851. Apart from the dates for the Liverpool mark (lifted straight from my database), the rest is from memory as I know it ...
A similar cover (from the database) showing the same arrangement of markings The double ring CDS was used for evening duty ...
I would be intrested in other collectors views if they see the events with regards to this cover different to me ...
Regards .. Allan
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Post by jamesw on Nov 20, 2018 2:05:30 GMT
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Post by jamesw on Nov 20, 2018 4:00:47 GMT
Following up, let me respond to a couple of your comments with excerpts from the above mentioned book.
The numeral 16 in diamond is a London Chief Office cancel (Not Chigwell)
pg 50 "Another very important change was carried out in 1857, when a late evening de- livery, terminating about 9 p.m., was established to all places within, six or seven miles of London. This late delivery had the effect of rendering unnecessary the Sunday morning delivery of letters in the districts served. The whole of the receiving houses, some 500, and the following branch or letter- carrier offices, were under the control of the Postmasters of the districts in which they were situated : 1 Highgate. 2 Finchley. 3 Whetstone. 4 Hampstead. 5 Hendon. 6 Edgware. 7 Stoke Newington. 8 Tottenham. 10 Edmonton. 11 Enfield. 12 Bow. 13 Stratford. 14 Leyton. 15 Woodford. 16 Chigwell. 17 Ilford. 18 Deptford. 20 Greenwich. 21 Woolwich. 22 Eltham. 23 Bexley. 24 Dulwich. 25 Sydenham. 26 Beckenham. 27 Clapham. 28 Tooting. 29 Mitcham. 30 Carshalton. 31 Wandsworth. 32 Putney. 33 Mortlake. 34 Richmond. 35 Twickenham. 36 Hampton. 37 Brompton. 38 Kensington. 39 Hammersmith. 40 Acton. 41 Brentford. 42 Paddington. 43 Charing Cross. 44 North Row (Branch Ofifice), 45 Portland Street. 46 Stepney. 47 Southwark. 48 Shoreditch. 49 Sidmouth Street (Branch Office)."
Although evening duty (due to delivery at Liverpool the following day), I am not aware that different colours were used for the various duties
pp 18-19 "Following on Lord Campbell's complaint, it was determined, if possible, with a view to the clear and legible stamping of letters, to obtain a superior ink. The firm of Shackell and Edwards submitted a specially manufactured ink, which upon test was found to be far superior to the inks then in use, and a contract was entered into with that firm for a regular supply of their inks, which they agreed to furnish at the following prices : Black and red, 2s. 6d. per lb., and blue at 2s, 3d. The additional cost was about ;^30o a year. Another ink, Henry Stephens' "blue fluid," was also brought into use at this period. This ink gave a very clear impression, but could only be used with wood stamps (Figs. 86, 87). On account of the regulation that red ink was to be used with morning stamps, and blue in the evening, these stamps were in use in the Inland Office on the evening duty only."
The red circle with cross was used on letters transferred to / from the penny or two penny post
Fig. 343. (image of circle with crossed lines inside) "Used in red on Foreign Letters which miss the Mail owing to being Missorted."
Again tallanent, I don't doubt your expertise, but I just wanted to point out some of the information I was using. Seems contradictory, perhaps more information has come to light since the book was published in 1909. I will no doubt need to read this book in more depth to understand the full details of the British system. One question. You suggest that the 1d mark was inland postage. Does that mean the 6d stamp would have covered the foreign mail costs? i.e. postage to Canada? That probably makes more sense than my assertion of insufficient postage. That idea came from figure 78 on pg. 17, and I'll admit was a little tenuous.
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Post by tallanent on Nov 20, 2018 8:58:38 GMT
I have saved the PDF and will do some reading up and try and resolve those issues .... problem is I am now very busy up to the 23rd December ... so it will be if / when I get chance ...
Just one point ... the postmark ....
The list you reproduce is correct .. however there were two different postmarks ... Number in diamond - London Chief Office Number in circle for those that you list
The type with number in circle ...
As you say ... this is how we all learn - so looking forward to reading up on this one ...
Allan
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Post by feebletodix on Nov 21, 2018 14:51:50 GMT
Well how about making this a thread for mourning covers? Mourning Cover to Edinburgh London E.C. 4 MY 14 1864 duplex 78 Mourning Cover to Edinburgh London E.C. 4 MY 14 1864 duplex 78
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theamateurphilatelist
Member
Keep calm and collect stamps!!
Posts: 317
What I collect: India, Machins, India, Laos, Austria, Russia, Commonwealth omnibuses, Covers, Birds
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Post by theamateurphilatelist on Nov 21, 2018 15:46:06 GMT
Why are they called the mourning covers?
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Nov 21, 2018 16:17:24 GMT
Why are they called the mourning covers? Someone has died recently. Queen Victoria used them for years mourning the death of Prince Albert.
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Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,908
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Nov 21, 2018 19:53:08 GMT
Well how about making this a thread for mourning covers? So, do you mean mourning covers exclusively for Great Britain? I recently acquired a mourning cover from Switzerland, but obviously I cannot post it here since this thread is part of the Great Britain sub-board. I am unsure of your original intention, but I think that a thread for mourning covers, irrespective of their origin, would be a very nice idea.
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brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
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Post by brightonpete on Nov 21, 2018 21:39:23 GMT
I am unsure of your original intention, but I think that a thread for mourning covers, irrespective of their origin, would be a very nice idea. Good idea!
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Post by jamesw on Jan 13, 2019 2:14:54 GMT
Thought I'd revisit this after a few weeks away. I'm happy to revise my original theory about this cover. Remember I'm no expert, and am in fact barely familiar with British postal history. But I'm learning and have gleaned what I can from online books that I've posted. So. My thoughts NOW on this cover are, postmarked in London according to the obliterator with the 16 in the diamond shape. Processed during the evening of July 31 1857, indicated by the blue ink used on the London date stamp on the back. 6d stamp (SC#27) for overseas mail and 1d handstamp to cover inland postage. Rounded diamond shape handstamp is Liverpool postal marking dated the next day August 1. The envelope is marked Per Mail Steamer, but does not indicate a particular ship. I'm assuming since there is no cross border postage indicated from the US to Canada, the ship must have sailed to a Canadian port. Checking the book North American Mail Sailing 1840-1875, by Walter Hubbard and Richard Winter (U.S. Philatelic Classics Society 1988), the only probable Steamer Line to Canada would have been the Allan Line sailing out of Liverpool. The Allan Lines mail steamer left Liverpool every Wednesday. As there was no steamer leaving port on August 1 (the last one had left July 29) the letter would have to wait until the next available ship. That would have been the S.S. Anglo-Saxon, leaving port on August 12. Because of the wait the letter received the red X in a circle handstamp indicating it had missed the packet. The Anglo-Saxon landed in Quebec City on August 23. There a black 2 1/2d hand stamp was applied indicating postage due to carry the letter to Port Credit C.W. which is located on the shore of Lake Ontario just west of Toronto. Do you think I'm closer this time? I think that sound pretty feasible. FYI the S.S. Anglo-Saxon which was launched in 1856, ran aground in 1863 and was wrecked 4.5 nautical miles north of Cape Race Nfld, with the loss of 236 lives. It is considered on of the largest marine disasters in Canadian history. d2jf3tgwe889fp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/North_Atlantic_Mail_Sailings_1840-75_with_Revisions.pdf
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