vikingeck
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Posts: 3,269
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 26, 2022 7:56:40 GMT
Thanks anglobob and hrdoktorx. Since the catalogues do not list it as used off paper my guess it is one of the later manifestations made by Maury on some of his older stock once the brothers Susse sold him their machine..
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Post by gstamps on Sept 26, 2022 9:07:04 GMT
Yes, vikingeck I think you are right; it is possible that it is a fake perforation. I found on the website "toutsurlestimbresdefrance.com /../PIQUAGES.html" an example of fake perforation. (Maury bought the perforation machine of the Susse brothers and forged this perforation.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Jan 23, 2024 0:17:03 GMT
these arrived today to give me something to do
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renden
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Posts: 8,719
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Jan 23, 2024 1:06:49 GMT
these arrived today to give me something to do Stan - am certain you will do well with your expertise and catalogs René
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 11, 2024 3:54:50 GMT
these arrived today to give me something to do (See previous post for image.) Be great to know if you come across any "Private perfs or roulettes". I have this example from the more limited number I have but have not yet found any decent information regarding these.
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Partime
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Just hit 50
Posts: 54
What I collect: Australia, Classic GB and Commonwealth
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Post by Partime on Mar 11, 2024 4:36:01 GMT
This thread just seems to come back after several years. Good to see additional information and questions. That last perforation anomaly is quite interesting. I’m looking forward to some comments.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 11, 2024 14:55:51 GMT
Be great to know if you come across any "Private perfs or roulettes". I have this example from the more limited number I have but have not yet found any decent information regarding these. xacs can you show an image of the back? and maybe cop down to just one of thew sides? Seems odd, they would only roulette vertically and then cut horizontal.
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 12, 2024 1:18:31 GMT
Does show evidence of roulette at base also though not as clear across full length. Of course the imperf top could just as easily be the result of someone cutting stamp from envelope or even in opening mail and most likely this was the case. From memory this was with a mixed bunch of similar period stamps of France that had not been sorted but variously torn from envelopes or on cut pieces or entirely loose as this one. Does not appear to have ever been soaked as still retains most gum with area of disturbance and couple of small patches of paper adhesion on back.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 12, 2024 7:26:07 GMT
xacs, I think your stamp is YT#14B, issued in September 1860. I found for sale (YT#14A): www.ebay.fr/itm/303403714688I found a list with essay perforations made up to 1862 (when perforated stamps were issued) but unfortunately your type is not shown: marcophilie.org/timbres-classiques/typsuze.htmlYou can still search by name from the list. These stamps with essay perforations on the envelope are valuable. The stamp only, less.
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 12, 2024 9:15:01 GMT
Thanks, I do recall finding that site before. There are certainly some interesting trial separations shown but no, none the same. I just thought to see if postmark gave any clues as there are a number of towns mentioned there with no illustrations. The number 196 and type belong to Autun and this was apparently in use from 1.1.1852 to 31.12.1862. Maybe some obscure French publication will say more. I'll keep looking.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 12, 2024 10:32:31 GMT
xacs , Cities/regions (?) where they are especially found:
Original French: Percé en ligne: assez courant, on en trouve en particulier à Soissons, Paris, Sartène, Marennes… English Translation: Rouletted: quite common, we find them especially from Soissons, Paris, Sartène, Marennes…
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 12, 2024 15:42:04 GMT
xacs thank you for posting the reverse. I now see the roulette on the bottom, and it does appear the top has been cut as it is not parallel to the frame. I have looked at Yvert & Tellier (2021) and I see that both the 14A and 14B are listed, but seemingly little detail as to differences. Maury, Ceres & Dallay (2009) provides the following, which shows differences in the EMPIRE FRANCAISE (what I would call the mast head) Below is an expanded image of yours Below is from Maury Ceres & Dallay (MC&D). 14A is above 14 B below. There are a number of variants in the masthead. MC&D specifically point out the 'v' cut of the M is 'off-kilter' and the I is short. Not specifically noted, is than many of the letters touch the upper or lower frame. The "I" on your stamp does look like it could be short. Additionally MC&D only list blue on green, and blue on lilac as color varieties. These tints under the main printed are often very subtle, and from an uploaded image, this level of subtly would hard to determine, unless (perhaps) side by side to other color varieties. Brun, Francon & Storch(1999 and hereafter referred to as BF&S) who are usually quite detailed, offer no details, although they do note a Type 1 and Type . As with much of the lack of consensus from the stamp catalogues, BF&S indicate 6 color varieties for the Type 2. Ceres (2003) offers very little information on this stamp- no Types, and no color variants. Dallay (2002) offers some additional details, but no mention of the masthead included in MC&D, so once again, perhaps , there was disagreement. He does specially note a piérce en lignes for the Tye II, blue on green. The details he provides focus on the hairlines on Nalopeons head. The top of the head hairline on your stamp is obscured by an obliteration, but at the temple, it does look closer to the Type II. Spink|Maury (2018 and 2022-2023), offers nothing in addition. Ther temple hair is called out, and a image of the entire profile is shown, but this offers little more than already mentioned, so no need to scan and add. Which is it for certain? Hard to say from the scan. I have found that often, not all of the traits called out in the details are found on every stamp. The 'untint/om" colors are often very faint, and considering these stamps are ~160-170 years old they are actually holding up rather well. gstamps Nice pair!!!! Cheers Stan
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Post by gstamps on Mar 12, 2024 15:53:33 GMT
stainlessb, Stan,the pair of stamps is not mine. I found them on a French website (tous sur timbres... I forgot the address)
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 12, 2024 16:21:03 GMT
well darn, but they're still nice!
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 12, 2024 21:22:45 GMT
I must have close to 500 of these and not a single roulette can I find... while looking today (I haven't really done much beyond acquire and stick onto Varios) here are some pairs which show a bit of the under printing/tint the top pair is (I believe( blue on azure) The middle Iand bottom may both be black blue or perhaps just dark blue. The middle one seems to have an underprint, but perhaps just soiled paper In all that I looked at, I could find nothing with a mast head similar to Maury Ceres & Dallay. I did find quite a few with the hair traits, as well as anumber that seemed to have more rubust lettering in the mast head (more on that later).... I need to do some digging and see if I can find whether the Type II was a retouched plate, or and entirely separtae plate. Although the Type I had ~3x the print production of the Type II , all total 1.25M sheets. I believe each sheet contained either 150 (10 x 15) or two panes for 300 stamp, so it seems like the Type II But there was this, and I can find no information on what CPI 0 is indicative of- anyone? and lastly, a very poor attempt at a repair, which has started to fail
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 13, 2024 4:40:01 GMT
stainlessb Thanks for all this info. I have never done more than sorting to type and basic colour variants but certainly interesting looking at plate details and other aspects of the design. I had not seen images of the differences in hair lines or those in the upper tablet or masthead. My Zumstein Catalogue for Europe makes mention of the hair as different in both Types however the defining feature for telling the two Types apart for them is the gap in shading lines on the neck with Type 1 clear and open to below the ear and Type 2 showing lines cutting across the upper portions of this space. This has been quite easy to see and have had no issues determining Type 1 from 2. When I cross check my Type 2 stamps with the hair detail they all match so good to know there is another test to check if specific area not visible.
My Type 2 stamps appear to show both variations of tablet at top and in some cases the neck shading is so indistinct it is difficult to tell. The best test seems to be the hair. Cheers Clayton
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 13, 2024 4:50:35 GMT
xacs , Cities/regions (?) where they are especially found: Nice alright. And they look much more like the roulette on mine too. As for which city or region posted in I hoped it might provide a clue if I find some information regarding which perforations were made in different areas. The link you had sent refered to specific places and postal cancel matched. On the pair above if I read correctly as a small number 65 then this would be Amiens. I suppose there is nothing to prevent a stamp being perforated/rouletted in one place and used in another but where they do match it would be good.
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 13, 2024 5:09:51 GMT
I must have close to 500 of these and not a single roulette can I find... But there was this, and I can find no information on what CPI 0 is indicative of- anyone? (See original post for image.) Lucky me I guess, as I only have around 20 of these and no pairs. One example on coloured paper and 4 or 5 black-blue. As for the CPIº it is a Railway Postmark I believe Haven't found exact ref to this but other letter combination refer to the line, e.g., Marseille to Lyon is ML 2º, CN P is Caen to Paris etc.... So, something beginning with C to Paris most likely.
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Post by gstamps on Mar 13, 2024 10:02:37 GMT
stainlessb, Stan, it's harder to search on the "marcophilie.org" site, but I think you can find any French postal cancellation. CP1* = Calais to Paris line.
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stainlessb
Member
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Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 13, 2024 14:07:34 GMT
Thank you both for info and comments.
xacs- Is the Zumstein catalogue a general catalogue for Europe? (I am not familiar with it). It seems it adds yet another side of how to tell te Type I and II apart. I would very interesteste din seeing a scan of the page(s) with this detailing doesn't matter if not in english)
Cheers and good morning!
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 13, 2024 23:40:15 GMT
I am somewhat hesitant to post these images as I do not know the source of the stamp ID, certainly they are not Yvert, at least the 2021 version that I currently use. The set of Yv14 came in an old collection that I bought maybe 10 years ago that was in I believe an early 20th cent Y&T album. I simply re-typed the caption for each stamp. The 14e, bleu-noir, does not seem correct, at least to my eyes. The set of Yv17 came from a consignor on Catawiki purchased a few years ago, from whom I have bought a number items, always of high quality. Hopefully this doesn't confuse the situation too much. Graham
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xacs
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Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 14, 2024 4:04:33 GMT
Images attached, I've cropped to show only the relevant section. Don't know why, but no matter how I try and attach them they always end up sideways?? Zumstein is a Swiss Produced Catalogue, a quick Google search will tell a bit about the history. Just happened to pick up an old (1993) 2 vol. Europe many years back and that has sufficed for the level of detail I need for this area. Where I specialise more for example Germany, I use a Michel . It is in German, but not too difficult to translate. Not sure what the value represents exactly today but gives an idea when something is worth more or less regardless.
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xacs
**Member**
Posts: 44
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Post by xacs on Mar 14, 2024 4:05:13 GMT
Sorted the sideways issue so ignore above should see upright.
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stainlessb
Member
qaStaHvIS yIn 'ej chep
Posts: 4,644
What I collect: currently focused on most of western Europe, much of which is spent on France, Belgium, Germany and Great Britain Queen Victoria
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 14, 2024 14:24:38 GMT
wvgm3 a very nice selection. It is difficult to tell colors from afar. Scanners are universally consistent with how they "see" colors" and then the monitors comes into play, plus, something happens to images when uploaded to TSF ( Proboards ) and colors can change from what the original image looks like. From your scan 14 d and 14e almost look the same. There are some efforts underway to quantify color shades, but it it is a work in progress. xacs thank you very much (now to try and get a copy of your images into a file! Cheers Stan
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 15, 2024 1:53:59 GMT
Like stainlessb, I have hundreds of Yv14, so I went through them and found three that could be perce en ligne. The first one certainly is, the second is likely, and the third only a maybe.
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 15, 2024 1:57:01 GMT
This block of 4 is from the Bordeaux emission, but is a good example of perce en ligne, the only multiple I have in my collection.
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 15, 2024 2:09:14 GMT
While I'm at it, I thought I would post some other examples of Napoleon piquages that I have. Spink/Maury (page 49 of 2019 edition) lists 31 types of piquages, perce en ligne being P1, while these are P3, piquage susse (although several might be other types). Yvert (page 103 of 2021 edition) only lists 7, but they do refer to their specialized catalog, so perhaps more listings there.
Of these examples, position 1, 3, 5, 6, and 7 are probably piquage susse based on the shape of the perforation. Position 2 and 4 may be others due to the shape difference. All of the ones not on fragment could also well be forgeries. Unsure if it is possible to tell.
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 15, 2024 2:35:23 GMT
Regarding the differences between Type I and Type II Napoleons, I have spent a lot of time looking at the "masthead" as stainlessb called it, and I have not seen any consistent differences, so I don't know what to say about that identifier. The two indicators that I have used are the shading of the neck and the hairs that form the lock between the eye and the ear. For Type I, the shading is broken almost to the ear, while for Type II the shading extends down to the level of the chin. Regarding the hairs (these are shown in Spink/Maury), there are four clearly separated and of equal length for Type II. The equal length is the easiest thing to see. In Type I, there are three hairs and the central hair is thicker (and often darker) and often longer.
The image shows a collection of Yv13 with some examples Type I and Type II, as well as other cancellations. If you zoom in on the center stamp of the first line of Type I, the broken shading is easily seen. While the shading extends much further down the neck in the Type II (it is easiest to see on the pair).
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 15, 2024 2:37:44 GMT
Thought I'd also include some examples of used blocks of 4 of Napoleons that I acquired a few years ago.
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 15, 2024 2:46:35 GMT
Finally, some examples of Yv14 with the differences between Type I and Type II easily visible when zoomed in, along with many other interesting cancellations. Again, the neck shading is the simplest indicator for me.
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