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Post by viking1234 on Feb 16, 2024 14:22:00 GMT
viking1234 I have seen this block several times in this thread. In the Yvert-Tellier catalog this block appears without the bottom 3 perforations: I think the holes could be made at the excibition of 1937, the ticket holder was only allowed to buy 1 bloch pr ticket, but maybe someone knowes about this
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Feb 16, 2024 15:32:20 GMT
viking1234 I have seen this block several times in this thread. In the Yvert-Tellier catalog this block appears without the bottom 3 perforations: It's seems many collectors do not like the perforations at the bottom and trim the sheet, or fold under (as in @hrdoktox example). There is a seller in the UK, yhstamps2020 that offers reproductions including the control punch at the bottom. "REPRODUCTION" isn't mentioned until you scroll quite a ways down in their listings. I have only seen reproductions offered by them. I tried to find more information on the perforations, but hrdoktorx is the only one to specifically mention (that I know of)
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 4, 2024 19:37:21 GMT
I am finally working on pages for the very earliest issues (starting at #1) as many of the denominations pretty much use a fill page, and the basic set-up doesn't change all that much, so it's easy to stop start as my day proceeds. (assuming I catch all the cut and paste errors)
The very first Ceres 'series', lists 're-impression' and printed in London as varieties. Despite the references I have, none give a great deal of detail about these. I'm guessing the re-impressions were retouched, but how? and the only distinction regarding the printed in London issues is"impression fine" (Y&T 2021). I have the color chart by Brinette, which has images.... but I'll admit I cannot see much difference.
Can anyone show some examples and perhaps explain how it was determined that the a stamp is a re-impression and/or printed in London?
Thank you in advance!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 7, 2024 19:12:31 GMT
Hmmm, well I have found the following from notes in Maury Ceres & Dallay:
This pertains to the 40 centimes Yvert #5 The variety “4 retouched” concerns the boxes 146 & 147 of one of the two halves printing plates, where it was noticed that there were two punches from 20c to the 40c place. So it's actually about the “2" being transformed into “4".
At the rate of 2 stamps for 300, we can estimate the circulation of around 27,000, of which undoubtedly very few have reached us.
Pair of 4 retouched: 7 known, I pair and 1 strip of 5 known . Pair of 4 retouched reprint, 3 known bands.
In general: Note on reprints: this is a reprint (reimpressions) made in 1862 at the request of Sir Rowland Hill to the French administration. The Cérès of 1849 and the Napoléon of 1852 were therefore reprinted in colors generally clearer than those of the originals. 4,350 complete series were printed. The London edition (very fine printing) is always without gum (print: one sheet of each except the 1f vermilion).
So, if I understand correctly, finding the retouched example is beyond us mere mortals, and likewise, it sounds like the London Edition is also very unlikely to not already be in a collection.
The reprints: Sir Rowland Hill was a postal reformer in Great Britain, though why he requested the reprints is unclear. the number 4,350 is unclear whether this refers to full sheets of 300 each, or 4, 350 each of the requested Ceres and Napoleon issues. Likewise, it is unclear if any of these remained in France for circulation or if all went to Sir Hill.
Unless I find information to the contrary I will be removing these from my 'goals'.
moving on!
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 17, 2024 20:14:24 GMT
Attached are side by side views of the Ceres issue from 1849-50 (bottom) and 1862 re-impression (top). My only reference for the differences is also attached, a short piece of text from my 1977 Scott Catalog A-F, which indicates the re-impressions are lighter colors and on whiter paper than the originals. I bought the set of re-impressions as part of a collection, the originals have been purchased individually and all have certificates, except the relatively inexpensive 20c. I have certainly looked at many auction catalogs comparing the differences, which generally confirm this description, but I am not sure I would trust myself to make the call unless they were side by side.
The difference between most of the stamps is subtle, but apparent to me. The differences between the 20c noir and 25c bleu versions are less distinct in my eyes. There are 11 shades of the 20c noir listed in Spink/Maury(!), while only the 3a "sur blanc", has the re-impression in the same shade, according to Spink/Maury. I definitely need to spend more time getting comfortable with the no. 3 shades.
I just looked in the most recent auction catalog from La Postale (no 50, Mar 1 2024) and they listed 3f noir sur jaune as the shade with a re-impression. Now, I'm confused.
Anyway, hope this helps.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 19, 2024 21:41:04 GMT
wvgm3 Thanks for posting. As Scott mentions no other color variants, it is at odds with Yvert & Tellier, and Maury, Ceres & Dallay, all of whom for most of the denominations list a a light or pale variant, And the listing for re-impression makes in most cases had an earlier issue with the same color 'descriptor".. The black is listed as on white, but there was also an earlier issue... Beranrd Brinette 2015.produced a color chart of the classic Ceres and Napoleon issues. The 10 c Bistre is listed as bistre clair and looks a bit lighter, bbut no mention of paper.. 15c lists a vert vif clair and it is slighlt lighter than th evert clair issue, but again no mention of paper. Now comes the 20c black wich for the re-impression is listed black on dark yellow, but no detail on whether this was a reference to paper color or an undertint. From his images of the 40 c, light orange and pale orange look very close, The 1F although labeled Carmine clair actually looks a fair amount darker than the earlier isasue of the same color. still clear as mud...
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 21, 2024 14:23:06 GMT
I wrote to Bernard Brinette regarding the re-impressions, and to my delight he responded! Below is my letter to him and below that, his reply. Good day to you sir! An acquaintance showed me your 2015 work on the color shades of the Ceres and Napoleon issues. Do you know if there was any retouching of the dies used in re-impression printing. or were they different from the original? I am finding little information, and much of it is not at a consensus. Scott is the only catalogue that makes much in the way of a detailed footnote (ironic as they list no color variants), that the re-impressions were all "in lighter colors and on whiter paper than the originals." Yvert & Tellier indicates they are hard to distinguish from the originals. Maury Ceres & Dallay offer; " il s'agit d'un retirage realise in 1862 sur la demande de Sir Rowland Hill a l'administration franchaise. Les Ceres de 1849 ete reimpression dans des colours en general plus clairs que celles des originaux. Il a ete tire 4 350 series completes." My translation "This is a reprint made in 1862 at the request of Sir Rowland Hill to the French administration. The Ceres of 1849 was reprinted in colors generally lighter than those of the originals. 4,350 complete series were printed." As Sir Rowland was in England, were all of these re-impressions sent to him (unsure why he requested them). If my translation of 'generally lighter' is correct, it is also a bit vague, and they make no mention of a whiter paper. Francon & Storch, who's works are generally detailed, mentions reimpressions, but I find nothing specific in Marianne 1849 - 1900 Any 'light' you might shed on this would be greatly appreciated. Warmest regards Stanley Brown------------------------------------------------- Good day to you also,At beginning, I read not correctly the message and I thought, whoa, Stanley Gibbons is writing to me. But a second later, I noted that it was Brown instead of Gibbons!About the reprints, it's not very easy, because honestly, it's the door opened to some business not very clean.It's true that officially, they were printed in 1862, all the Ceres and some Napoleon, the 2 Republic stamps and the 25c Empire, 1F and the 80 centimes, there were also reprints from 1855 called Arts et Métiers.About the colours, in general it's true, but for me, the Ceres 20c is near from chamois, dark yellow shade in reprint. The ink of the stamp is of course black. It's true, that for the other stamps, in general they are lighter, to simplify they have the colours of the stamps from 1862 when they begun to be perforated. In reality it's not easy to distinguish a reprint from an original stamp, especially for the Napoleon 1F.About the 4350 complete series, this is what Maury said but you know as me, that in nearly each vente sur offres, (stampauction) there are some Napoleon 1F reimpression! This is not normal. This trafic began with Maury who was himself a great stamp seller. I'd say that there were more reprints than officially said. The surest stamps are probably cancelled stamps, especially because cancelled stamps are cheaper and there were not many fantaisist cancellations, in general, the cancellations are easy to identify. The mint stamps are not easy to collect because they are expensive and it's difficult to validate the statement of the gum. The original gums are sometimes rather ugly, but they are genuine. When the gum is rather correct, it's probable that the stamp has already been regummed. Else the difference between mint with gum and mint no gum is too big. Of course many stamps are without gum, bur it is better to have a stamp with an ugly gum ? That's not easy and with cancelled stamps all those problems are eliminated. So in conclusion, what you say about reprints is right and official, but is it really the truth ? Best regards.Bernard Brinette Not that this clears things up all that much, but it will probably be the only time in my life when anyone mistakes me for Stanley Gibbons
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renden
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Post by renden on Mar 21, 2024 19:22:27 GMT
stainlessb Good show Stan - Happy you had a response from Bernard Brinette, and I have his manuscript also (as you know) René
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 28, 2024 20:41:57 GMT
This is going to be a fairly deep dive into the PEXIP or BF3 block, as there has been quite a bit of discussion on this thread regarding it. Yvert lists BF3 and 3 varieties: BF3a imperf, BF3b with the cancellation of the exposition, and BF3c without the control perforation. Spink/Maury lists BF3 and the imperf version and an additional 5 varieties including BF3c without the control perforation, BF3d with the perforation at the top. As a note, it is unclear in Yvert whether the image of the block shown in the catalog is with or without the perforation, as the image appears to be cropped just below the text in the lower right, so the perforation could have been cropped out.
The first two images are BF3 (with perforation) and BF3c (without perforation). The variety without perforation is less common and thus has a higher catalog value than the normal block.
The next image is with the perforation at the top of the sheet. This is the only one that I have ever seen.
Regarding exposition cancellations, there are many from either a single cancellation to two cancellations (on or away from the stamps) to 4 cancellations (often on the corners of the frame). I have attached images of the 2 and 4 cancellation versions.
Finally, there appears to me to be two different papers the block was printed on (one on yellower or cream paper and one on whiter paper), but this is not mentioned in either catalog, so I don't know if this is accurate. The last image shows the two "papers" side by side.
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 28, 2024 21:01:47 GMT
That is very cool the Bernard Brinette responded to you! As you note, no definitive explanation. It does not seem that the colors of the perforated 1862 "Empire Dentele" really helps that much, as each of those have multiple shades. I will compare the re-impressions I have with the "Empire Dentele" and see what I learn.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 28, 2024 22:21:07 GMT
I will need to look into what information I can find on the PEXI{ sheet. I am not sure, but to me, the reference to imperf would be a sheet lacking th eperforations around the the stamps. According to Maury, 175,000 were printed and issued from 6/18/37 - 6/26/37. With such a short 'run" I would be surprised if this was printed in multiple runs (as opposed to one single production run). Maury does list 'sans la perforation de l'Atelier' which I translate as 'without the workshop perforation, and 'perforation en haut' (perforation at the top). I am guessing this is reference to the haricot.
There is no mention of paper varieties by Maury either, It does make we wonder if it is simply yellowing due to how it was stored?
now, I have found additional information is a back section inMarianne, Brun, Francon & Storch regarding the reprints
We call reprinting all prints made with the original material, of stamps whose manufacture has been stopped, and which are not not intended to be sold to the public for postage on correspondence.
REPRINT OF 1862 Following a request from Sir Rowland Hill, Secretary General of the British Post Office, to Mr Vandal, Director General of French Posts, of old stamps for its collection, it was noted that “no specimen of the missing series has been preserved”. It was decided that a collection of stamps, preserved by the Monetary Museum, would be created. The reprint was carried out by Hulot, from September 9 November 1862. On September 17, 1862, the excess reprinted sheets were incinerated. The figures below are those of the sheets preserved, a large part of which is in the Postal Museum.
Ceres 14-1/2 sheets of 300 (4,350) R1 (Reprint 1),R2, R3A, R4, R5, R6. The gum is whiter
The shades are different
Brinette did mention that 'his'reprint (or whatever he had for the purposes of his published work) - 20 c black was on an orangish background.
Your stamps might merit certification!!
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Post by wvgm3 on Mar 28, 2024 23:21:50 GMT
It is entirely possible that the color difference is simply due to aging as you note, though it is quite uniform. I bought most of those PEXIP sheets in a lot from Le Timbre Classique last year, so I have no idea how they have been stored for the last 80+ years.
That is interesting info on the re-impressions from your library. Wish I had those additional references.
I do have one certificate from Sismondo for a re-impression as shown below. The notes of "medium white wove paper" is interesting.
As you suggested, getting the others expertized would probably be a good investment. Unfortunately, I just looked up Sismondo and learned that he had passed away last year. Is anyone aware of qualified experts in the US for French Stamps? Otherwise, it might be time to go to France, as I don't think I would be comfortable shipping them.
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Mar 29, 2024 0:13:38 GMT
It has taken a few years, but the references have been most helpful in putting together a more 'complete' picture, although at times some things just seem to be in total conflict. I 'think" I am getting close to having the lion share of available references. I would like to find a good reference on the Type Sage, but I have not sen anything only focused on that series. There is also a work on Typ[e Blanc and Merson I do not have. Unfortunately, both (actually most all) were printed in small numbers so they don't come available all that often, and some are exorbitantly priced
I do not know of any French experts in the US. APS may know of someone.
I'm am thrilled whenever I am able to converse with some with a more deeper interest! It seems we are are small 'group'
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