cjoprey
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What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Aug 26, 2019 11:31:23 GMT
Hi all, While going back through my stock books I found a Cape of Good Hope 4p triangle, and I sadly don't have enough knowledge to identify the specific variant (or if it is real or a forgery). I'm aware it has been cut very badly, but as it's potentially the oldest stamp in my collection (or at least the bit I've sorted so far) I'm rather keen to find it more about it... I've attached scans of the front and rear - please let me know if you have any suggestions! Many thanks, Chris
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Aug 26, 2019 12:21:54 GMT
Thanks for your post, Chris ( cjoprey ).... nice stamp! I wish I knew more about these to be able to answer you myself, but I will tag fellow member Jon ( blaamand ), whom I know has sorted quite a few COGH triangles to see what he can tell us. He is on home-leave from his maritime work at the moment, so not sure how quickly he will be able to answer, but hopefully he can offer a quick opinion. Let's see! Below is a scan of the only such triangle in my collection, which I have identified as a COGH Scott #13. Clearly the color of mine seems quite different from yours. The engraving on yours also looks finer than on mine. My guess is that yours is a COGH Scott #4 (revised from #2 to #4 based on blaamand comment about white paper). But that's just a guess from someone with no particular expertise.
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 26, 2019 12:48:39 GMT
Congratulations with your COGH triangle cjoprey! Thanks for the encouragement to offer an opinion Beryllium Guy, but want to say I am by no means any capacity on COGH. Can still give it a go. Normally the first thing to look for is the presense of an anchor watermark. I cannot see it from the scan, however I am still quite convinced this stamp is genuine. The postmarks looks legit and it has several of the secret marks to look for: Next is to identify which of the triangle issues it belongs to. It seems to me on rather white paper which rules out the first printings from 1853. It is certainly not any of the 'Wood block' issues. So then it is either Perkins and Beacon printings 1855-63 or De La Rue 1863-64. I find it difficult to distinguish between these, would need an expert to say for sure. However my guess is it looks like a relatively well defined printing, so I believe it to be by Perkins and Beacon and not of the later printings by De La Rue, which were made when the printing plates had become more worn out. So I believe SG #6 or #6a. Fortunately there are more knowledgable Commonwealth collectors in this forum. Please correct my assumptions if wrong.
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cjoprey
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Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,443
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Aug 26, 2019 13:15:34 GMT
Thank you for the excellent descriptions blaamand and Beryllium Guy! It's great to know this isn't one of the many forgeries out there. Based on the explanation from Jon and checking the listings in my SG 2007 Commonwealth guide it would appear to be SG #6. Thanks again!
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khj
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Post by khj on Aug 26, 2019 17:46:34 GMT
Also check for sideways watermark variety.
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cjoprey
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Scanning stamps for my website...
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What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Aug 26, 2019 19:15:25 GMT
I plan to - once I get something to detect watermarks with. My eyes and a light just aren't good enough nowadays...
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 27, 2019 11:52:54 GMT
Normally a bath in clean water will do the job. If so, miss Hope gets to clean herself up as well, win-win.
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Post by rjan55 on Aug 27, 2019 17:37:30 GMT
Yes Blaamand covered most of the key details on the stamp to check for authenticity. I have over 150+ triangles but am still at a loss to definitely separate the blue 4 Pence Perkins & DeLaRue printings. I have read and re-read the Stevenson opus and still remain puzzled. Generally the former have finer prints which points yours toward the Perkins. Another detail is that they were printed in A/B pairs based on differences in die. The principal 4-pence difference is the detail of the lettering in Four Pence. Yours appears to be Die A with an unfaulted F and thicker E's and C in Pence.
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Aug 27, 2019 20:01:38 GMT
rjan55 - thanks for your more knowledgeable opinion, glad to hear my guesstimate was sound. Would love to see some of those 150 triangles, must be a wild collection!!
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cjoprey
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What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Aug 28, 2019 0:28:21 GMT
Thanks for the extra info rjan55!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 25, 2022 17:20:05 GMT
Well, Chris ( cjoprey), I hope you don't mind that three years after you started this thread, I am finally able to give a better opinion about your stamp. I agree with opinions from rjan55 and Jon ( blaamand) that this is clearly a Perkins Bacon printing. As the paper is not blued, that means that it must be a variety of SG6. In this area, and thanks to reviewing many contributions from Jim ( jkjblue), I would incline towards SG6 Deep Blue versus SG6a Blue, because just as with many of Jim's examples, yours seems to show some evidence of sulphuretting. In Stevenson's book, he mentions that Deep Blue shades are more prone to sulphuretting, and that seems to be borne out in the stamps we have been discussing in the thread. To be clear, the sulphuretting refers to the darker areas visible on your stamp, particularly behind Hope and below FOUR PENCE, but including the area around the letter U, which I have outlined in red. Some of the background area on the other side of Hope appears darkened, too. You can decide whether to leave the stamp in this condition or to try a quick treatment in dilute hydrogen peroxide to remove some of the darkening. I will leave it to Jim to advise on that, as I have not yet tried it myself. As for the watermark, I think I can see part of the left fluke of the anchor, so it looks to me like it is a normal watermark, not a sideways one. Please see image below. Anyway, I hope this helps, and sorry it took so long for me to make a better reply. By the way, when I took copies of the images, I noted that the file names for this stamp are labelled SG19, which is a common mistaken conclusion to draw for stamps that have been darkened by sulphuretting, giving the impression of the indigo blue color typical of the DLR printings.
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 25, 2022 17:26:51 GMT
Gee, Chris Beryllium Guy, how things have moved since your tentative response back in 2019 to your full on knowledge and confident opinions 3 years later!
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cjoprey
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Post by cjoprey on Jun 25, 2022 18:06:11 GMT
Couldn't agree more Alek vikingeck - and thanks so much for coming back round to this Chris Beryllium Guy ! I had since the original discussion categorised this stamp as SG6 (or Scott 4b) myself, so very glad to hear that this is indeed the consensus. With your newfound skills Chris, I would like your critical eye on the other 3 I have since acquired. I have tentative categorisations based on the details from Colnect, but I'm almost certain they are all incorrect... Sorry, but I don't currently have scans of the backs, but can see if I can get those done if they are needed. SG 4a? SG 5b? SG 19a?
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 25, 2022 20:55:52 GMT
Thanks, Alex ( vikingeck) and Chris ( cjoprey) for your kind replies. I have learned much in the past 3 years, but I am still learning, as I found out during my recent visit to SG. More on that intriguing subject in the reasonably near future. Well, Chris, I am glad to see that you have taken the plunge and acquired a few more Cape triangles over the past three years, too. I find them to be a fascinating area. Identifying your latest:My first comment is that we are definitely going to need scans of the backs of the stamps to be able to arrive at solid opinions on catalogue IDs. This is most important for determining blued or not blued paper, which can only be determined by looking the back. Sorry to put you to extra work, but it will pay off in understanding what you actually have. All of that said, here are some initial, tentative opinions just from looking at the fronts: Tentative ID of SG4a: Color-wise, this does look like a PB printing, so possibly SG2, SG4, or SG6 varieties. An SG4 variety would be on paper slightly blued, so no way to know if that is the case without seeing the back. I should warn you that SG6 varieties are by far the most common, so we shouldn't be too surprised if the back doesn't actually show any blueing. Paper stained from blue ink is often mistaken as blueing. It is a mistake that I made in the early going, until noted specialist Richard Debney set me straight. Tentative ID of SG5b: Color-wise, this does look like a Rose Red variety (SG5a or 5b), but it would be best to see the back just to be sure it is as expected and to check the watermark. I have been fooled before by scans of fronts that appear to be a Rose Red shade, and then I see that the back shows blueing, so it has to be a Brick Red shade. Tentative ID of SG19a: If you compare this one to your first example, the colors look the same to me. My initial thinking is that this is another PB printing, not a DLR one, sorry if that is disappointing news. The PB printings of these stamps were roughly 10 times as many as the DLR ones, so we must expect that the vast majority of what we will encounter will be PB printings. But seeing the back will tell the full story, and whether there is any blueing present. I hope this is a good start, and I look forward to seeing scans of the backs as time permits.
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cjoprey
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Scanning stamps for my website...
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What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Jun 26, 2022 10:26:42 GMT
Thanks for the great feedback Chris Beryllium Guy ! I had some time to get the backs scanned, so here are all three again with front and back: SG 4a? SG 5b? SG 19a?
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 26, 2022 12:08:08 GMT
“True blue or not too blue.” ……. that is the question, as we paraphrase Hamlet.
Your three triangles in reverse order ( my opinion)
No3. 4d on lightly blued paper …even bluing with whiter area round Hope ( more or less blued as described for GB) No2. 1d rose on white or cream paper not blued No.1. 4d with impression of ink seen on the back … paper not blued
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cjoprey
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Post by cjoprey on Jun 26, 2022 14:08:51 GMT
Thanks for your opinion Alek vikingeck - it's good to see what people who know more about these than I do think, as it helps me learn so much!
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Jun 26, 2022 21:08:53 GMT
Sorry for my slow response, Chris ( cjoprey ). Today we saw our visitors off, travelled home, and I have still not been feeling my best. I appreciate that Alex ( vikingeck ) has stepped in and replied promptly, and I am happy to say that I agree with all of his opinions. Great stuff, Alex! I would just throw in just a couple of small add-ons: Tentative ID of SG4a: I completely agree with Alex, no blueing here, but the impression of blue ink is probably what led to that original perception. This shows a little bit of sulphuretting, but nowhere near as much as your very first example, so I would ID this one as SG6a Blue on "white" (i.e., not blued) paper. Tentative ID of SG5b: This one I would classify as SG5a Rose rather than SG5b Deep Rose Red. My contact at Gibbons showed me some examples during our meeting, and although there is what he called "a wide band" when it comes to judging some of these colors, which includes the 1d Rose varieties, this one is not as pale as some, but not deep enough in color to qualify as SG5b, at least based on what I saw. This one is a pretty subjective call, though, so you might get away with calling it an SG5b if you really want to. Tentative ID of SG19a: Well, I am very glad indeed that one of these 4d blues turned out to be something other than an SG6 variety. This is your SG4a. One last point: I could see evidence of normal, upright watermarks on all three of these. Thanks for sharing these with us, Chris. It was fun to take a look and see what we could see. Stay stampy, all!
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cjoprey
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Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,443
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
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Post by cjoprey on Jun 27, 2022 6:54:13 GMT
Thank you so much for the information Chris Beryllium Guy! I'm really happy to have a clearer idea of which variants I have in my collection, and have learned more about this fascinating series. 😀
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