erthur
**Member** 
Posts: 41 
What I collect: Scandinavia and Estonia
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Post by erthur on Nov 16, 2019 20:01:48 GMT
Can anyone help in identifying this postmark on a Finnish Arms type stamp issued in 1885, Scott #33, Facit #22, LAAPE #22? Thanks,  |
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,721
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 16, 2019 20:25:02 GMT
I think that's a Swedish language postmark from Kuhmois, known in Finnish as Kuhmoinen. I recall seeing Swedish town names on old Finnish stamps, particularly "Tammerfors", the Swedish name for Tampere. I didn't do any proper research but after a quick Google Images search I came up with this 1892 Finnish postal card with a unilingual Swedish cancellation from Tampere - image nabbed from an eBay listing.  Ryan |
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,721
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 16, 2019 20:31:00 GMT
Hmmm, that's a very cosmopolitan card - sent from an almost entirely unilingual Finnish town with its Swedish town name on the postmark, addressed in German with the destination town name in German but the street name in Swedish, to a town once upon a time in Finland but now in Russia. ha ha
Ryan
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erthur
**Member**
Posts: 41
What I collect: Scandinavia and Estonia
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Post by erthur on Nov 16, 2019 21:58:10 GMT
Ryan thanks for your help. I need to find/create a cross reference of Finnish/Swedish/Russian language placenames. By the way that is a great card as well. Here is another example of which I was to identify earlier: Nikolaistad (Swedish) = Vaasa (present day Finnish)  |
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,721
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 16, 2019 22:23:15 GMT
I need to find/create a cross reference of Finnish/Swedish/Russian language placenames. Here is a starting point for you - have a look at this Wikipedia page entitled Names of places in Finland in Finnish and in Swedish. There may well be a page for Russian versions of Finnish placenames as well. I didn't see anything useful on a quick look, though. Ryan |
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erthur
**Member**
Posts: 41
What I collect: Scandinavia and Estonia
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Post by erthur on Dec 16, 2019 21:37:46 GMT
Here is another I am having difficulty identifying. I think it is a railway cancel, Hango - Hyvinka - ?. I am not familiar with the third town.  |
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renden
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Posts: 8,711
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
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Post by renden on Dec 16, 2019 22:33:39 GMT
We have some pretty good Scandivanians on this Forum....would be surprised if one of them would not help you
BTW you are free to participate in my NOW giveaway - Good Luck !!
René
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 543
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Dec 16, 2019 22:43:57 GMT
Here is another I am having difficulty identifying. I think it is a railway cancel, Hango - Hyvinka - ?. I am not familiar with the third town.
The cosmopolitanism was a sign of nationalist struggles. The Swedish speakers who controlled the country until Russian conquest were hanging on, and the Finnish speakers were undermining Petersburg's efforts to force Russification. So the Swedish and Finnish speakers fought for their ways. One result was a lot of trilingual documents back then. And bi-lingual street signs and documents to this day. As for that third noun, search me. |
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,461
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Post by khj on Dec 16, 2019 23:13:48 GMT
The third part is POSTKUPEN.
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erthur
**Member**
Posts: 41
What I collect: Scandinavia and Estonia
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Post by erthur on Dec 16, 2019 23:50:03 GMT
You all have been most helpful. Thanks a lot.
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,461
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Post by khj on Dec 17, 2019 1:32:07 GMT
So you can see the entire postmark (not mine, pilfered pic as usual, don't report me  ):  |
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vikingeck
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What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Dec 17, 2019 18:35:50 GMT
For those who are not familiar with the term POSTKUPEN , Means sorting wagon, a travelling post office on a train. They sometimes also use the Swedish POSTVAGEN
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erthur
**Member**
Posts: 41
What I collect: Scandinavia and Estonia
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Post by erthur on Dec 18, 2019 3:24:15 GMT
khj that's a very interesting postcard.
I've noticed that the railway line and date are 180° out of rotation.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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Post by philatelia on Dec 27, 2019 19:54:19 GMT
I also need help with this Finland cancellation, please? Is this some type of official cancel or is this (fingers crossed!) a town cancel? Thanks!  |
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philatelia
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Post by philatelia on Dec 27, 2019 20:01:25 GMT
I found this bit of info, but it doesn’t tell me is this what the catalog calls a “town cancel?.  |
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philatelia
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Post by philatelia on Dec 27, 2019 20:03:39 GMT
The catalog says ...  |
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philatelia
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Post by philatelia on Dec 27, 2019 20:08:15 GMT
I’m assuming this is wove paper, too. It is definitely not a cut square, though. Whew - I need to do some reading! I’ll start with Michel and Facit - back in a bit.
Hmmmm says watch for forgeries! Ack!
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,266
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Dec 27, 2019 20:49:45 GMT
Ok I have slight experience of these but I am no expert.
on the plus side:
1. I’d say this is “cut square “ as opposed to the more common an less valuable “cut all Round”
2. This resembles the town cancel for Viborg, many of these just have a manuscript pen cancel “x” however the usual letters have serifs, but there are two different cancels noted for ,WIBORG with and without serifs
Two howevers:
3 the date of 10 /7 1858 may not be correct. The letters in the postmark do not have serifs .
4 I question the colour, if your scanner is correct it is too scarlet . the real colour is darker and more crimson , like the other example you quote
5 Cut square would normally be more vertical / horizontal aligned , this is on a slant
I ‘m going to my Facit to check .........I’ll be back.
On balance I am very doubtful
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philatelia
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Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Dec 28, 2019 2:11:18 GMT
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kasvik
Member
Posts: 543
What I collect: Cancels mostly, especially Sweden Gävle and Lidingö, Switzerland Geneva, Germany Pforzheim
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Post by kasvik on Dec 28, 2019 21:18:46 GMT
I also need help with this Finland cancellation, please? Is this some type of official cancel or is this (fingers crossed!) a town cancel? Thanks!
Sorry to be a wet blanket. A few weeks ago Tradera came through with a too-good-to-be true Swedish town cancel from the same period. I was delighted. Then it arrived and I discovered a massive tear. I'm very glad the seller refunded me, but also kinda wary. |
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Dec 28, 2019 23:11:17 GMT
Not a wet blanket at all. This stamp didn’t cost me anything - it was on a stock page in a collection I bought a while back so no great loss at all.
I think you are both right. I now believe this is an 1892 reprint with a phony cancel. But, still fun and better than an empty space. Thanks so much for the assist! You fellas are the best!
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 26, 2020 1:57:24 GMT
Well I think I have a genuine Finland #2 this time - not a great copy, but better than nothing! Comparing it to the one in the previous messages the color is VERY different. Edit - forgot to add - THANK YOU kasvik and vikingeck for your posts on the reprint. Helped me to decide on this copy. I bought the collection just for the first page. The rest were “gimme’s”. Also added 20 coat of arms (mostly faulty space fillers) but this gives me more material to study. These were all in a real bargain auction lot that also included a ton of other Finnish goodies. My Finland collection is now almost complete except for the rarities and recent issues. Yay! I need to do do more work on these, but I have them roughed in ...    |
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blaamand
Member
Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Jan 26, 2020 17:05:49 GMT
philatelia - what a great accumulation of classics - wow! These are very hard to fine in fine condition, but it seems to me there are a few in your selection regardless - sweet. With regards to the topic of this thread - I cannot make out the postmarks from your images unfortunately. As a general note I like the neat small format CDS cancels the Finnish had at that time - small enough to sit nicely within the design of the small definitives. But the disadvantage is that the smaller postmarks also makes identification even more difficult...everything comes at a cost  Perforation identification can be hard to, but it seems you are doing great progress. Is that a type 1 perforation (short perfs) on that last of your no.7's, at bottom right on the first image? The no.7 above it is a really gem by the way, surprisingly well-centred and good perforations for this stamp!! Envy  Good luck with the continuation of this project - hoping to see your completed album pages once finish (Not Finnish, haha)
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
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What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 27, 2020 1:46:59 GMT
Thank you! I really enjoy this series because it is challenging. Between the fragile perfs (aka serpentine roulettes vikingeck notes) and their variations, the papers, colors etc, almost every stamp I get is slightly different. I’m not sure if that is a type I (short toothed) #7. Will have to do some measuring. |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,266
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 27, 2020 9:14:15 GMT
Strictly speaking these are Three types of “serpentine roulettes”, they are not “perforations”. The teeth are cut which leaves them fragile and vulnerable to tearing. Perforated separation means that the holes are punched out.
A full set of teeth is scarce and worth considerable premium.
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,404
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 27, 2020 12:40:08 GMT
Thanks, vikingeck , you’re right. I was using perfs as a generic catch all term for whatever manner of paper incision is present, but serpentine roulettes are the correct term. Maybe I’ll call them “serps” for short lol! Serps and Perfs, eh?  |
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,266
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jan 27, 2020 12:52:50 GMT
I don’t know Terri philatelia , ! SERPS sounds like some nasty disease  |
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philatelia
Member
Captain Jack - my best kiloware find ever!
Posts: 3,404
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Bermuda, Austria
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Post by philatelia on Jan 27, 2020 17:34:50 GMT
vikingeck . Omg I was LITERALLY laughing out Loud! Just imagine messages like - Oh no! “Terri just got a bunch of SERPS” hahaha Or “having problems dealing with these SERPS.” “Thought it was perforated but was diagnosed as a bad case of SERPS.” 
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Ryan
Member
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 2,721
What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Jan 27, 2020 19:35:45 GMT
SERPENTINE!!! Ha ha - unfortunately this clip ends just a few seconds too early ... as they're driving away, of course they serpentine some more.
Ryan
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khj
Member
Posts: 1,461
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Post by khj on Feb 24, 2020 4:38:25 GMT
I also need help with this Finland cancellation, please? Is this some type of official cancel or is this (fingers crossed!) a town cancel? Thanks! Sorry, I missed this post. Very pretty, but... The genuine sans-serif WIBORG box cancels that I have seen still have a stem at the bottom of the G (to distinguish from C), as well as a fairly clear period after the G (i.e., the boxed sans-serif cancel actually reads WIBORG.), and the loop of the R is slanting upwards where it attaches to the leg (your cancel, the loop is horizontally straight where it meets the leg of the R). Google Finland WIBORG cancels to see examples of geniune sans-serif WIBORG box cancels, and you should be able to see what I am talking about. Regarding the stamp. Original stamps were typographed (hand press). Make sure your stamp is not lithographed. On the original hand-press stamp, the pressing is never even so you will always get heavy edge marks on the oval somewhere (it will look like the oval edges have been outlined at certain spots). These can always be seen on genuine originals in decent condition. Your oval looks pretty clean, but maybe you have some outlining at the top right side of your oval. It is unlikely to put fake cancel on the official stamp reprints. A possibility is fake cancel on postal stationery. The way your stamp is cut, it is not a reasonable cut from a sheet of stamps because certain parts of the margin are exceptional. But cut from postal stationery would give you ample margins any direction. Original postal stationery does not have the secret marks. Yours does. Is it possible cutout official postal stationery reprint (those do have secret marks) and then put on cover? To differentiate between postal stationery and stamp, examine the direction of the paper with respect to the stamp (may be difficult since still on piece). Whether laid or wove, stamps will be aligned with the paper, but postal stationery will be diagonal to paper direction. Either way, still a nice looking example! |
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