tobben63
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What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 24, 2019 9:18:06 GMT
In 1938 Norway issued a serie of three stamps to promote tourism i Norway. The motiv was a reindeer (15øre), Borgund stav church (20øre) and and a landscape from Jølster (30øre). The first issue was printed on paper with watermark (posthorn) from Hamang papirfabrikk (paper factory). The watermark is easy to spot, even without any device, but there are some that you need to use a devise/liquid to spot. These stamps are numbered: 15øre Nk (norwegian catalogue) 217, Michel 195, Scott 181. 20øre Nk218, Mi196, Sc182. 30øre Nk219, Mi197, Sc183.  Then in 1939 the supply of stamps must have been empty and there was a need for reprinting. This time on paper without watermark, and from two different paper suppliers. The paper is described as thick yellowish paper and thin white paper. The suppliers was Hamang (as in the first issue) and Alvøen. I have not managed to find out which fabric who delivered what. To try to sort out what is thick and thin paper the most common way is to flipp the paper with your fingers. But this may not anything about the thickness, but more the stiffness. Then again no catalogue say anything about how thick or thin the paper is. Another way to find out witch is from what paper is to see on the colour of the paper. Yes, that would be nice, but these stamps are 80 years old, stored in very different locations and environment that could/has had an influence on the paper. I could give all the stamps a bath in Hydrogenperoksid, but that would be a task behind my patience. I'm in the possision of a tool who can measure down to 0,001mm. (This is a tool we have at work but never use, and I are the one who have responsibility over these tools). So what I did was to first find all the stamps with watermark, and put them away. Then I did a 5 point measure on all the remaining 68 stamps. This gave me the following result.  Did I get wiser by doing this? Well, maybe not. I might have to use Hydrogenperoksid on the stamps that are in the range 0,09 - 0,15 to see if the paper is yellow ore white. But if I look at the stamps printed there might be some help.
| Thin white paper | Thick yellow paper | | 15 Øre | 3,2 mill | 1,9 mill | | 20 Øre | 43 mill | 8,4 mill | | 30 Øre | 3,7 mill | 1,2 mill |
This tell me that there should be a lot more stamps with thin white paper than yellowish thick paper. So I'm tempted to think that all stamps that are 0,1mm and thicker are on thick paper. Number/catalogue info.
| Michel | Scott | Norwegian Cat. | | Water m. | 195 ->197 | 181 -> 183 | 217 -> 219 | | Thick | 200y -> 202y |
| 220x ->222x | | Thin | 200x ->202x | 184 -> 186 | 220y ->222y |
I have no info of Scott number on thick paper. The 20øre are often found with perfect postmarks.  |
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,874
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 24, 2019 9:26:37 GMT
Measuring in work  |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Nov 24, 2019 9:27:39 GMT
Interesting research !
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Nov 27, 2019 17:20:51 GMT
Good job tobben63 - useful study and info, thanks for sharing. I have been thinking to acquire such a tool. In many cases the differences between 'thick' and 'thin' paper are so subtle it is hard to work out without actually measuring. A digital caliper would have been useful for my ongoing study of the 'Small Queens' to. Does anybody have a recommendation for such a tool at an "affordable" cost? |
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 27, 2019 19:27:48 GMT
tobben63 and blaamand Guys, micrometers seem interesting. To what charts or data can we compare our results. I was looking at Chap 2, p 19 of Hillson's and Nixon's " Canada Postage Stamps of the Small Queen Era, 1870-1897" - the various papers described, from Paper A to Paper H do give subjective descriptions of each, but no objective measurement. Also searched the Index to find nothing on precise measurements. So I conclude that a "micrometer" is not useful in the study of SQs........or does this data exist ? My comment may be off the track with the title of this thread....just wondering René
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 27, 2019 21:14:24 GMT
renden As far as I know there is no data on paper thickness on the Norwegian Tourist issue. But catalogues reefer to thick and thin paper. So I wondered what is thick and thin paper. I'm not finish with this 'study'. There is also white and yellowish paper, the thick is yellowish and the thin is white. But I think I have to dip all the stamps in hydrogenperoksid before I decide the colour of the paper. Then check the colour to the thickness and see if there is a pattern. I should have had a lot more stamps to make this test more valid, but this is what I have.
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,874
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 27, 2019 21:19:40 GMT
blaamand The tool I have I think is very expensive. It is not mine, I borrow it from work. But I have seen analoge gauges on the net, used for this. I will search for it tomorrow. I think it is important that it measure down to 0,001mm. An ordinary micrometer (0,01mm) is not good enough.
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
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Post by blaamand on Nov 27, 2019 21:26:53 GMT
renden - Unfortunately I think that is the case in very many cases. In fact it is not often one see actual paper thickness stated in the catalogs at all. As we know, the catalogs mostly simply say thick, medium, thin etc without any actual measurement provided. However despite this, I respectfully disagree a caliper is not useful - including for the SQ's. A good example is tobben63's study in his original post. He had no reference to actual thickness of the different types of paper. However if one have a certain quantity of stamps and do the same exercise as Tobben did, one can hope to see a statistic pattern. Like in a group of X number of stamps that seem to peak around a certain span of thicknessess and another set Y that seems to 'peak' at another thickness. Tobben found two such groups, one peaking at thickness 0,09 and the other at 0,11. If the catalogue states thick and thin - well, in lack of any other data, his study has revealed there is a group of thinner and thicker papers. The same kind of study could be done for other stamps as well, provided one has a sufficient number of stamps to make up some statistical weight. It might be a wrong assumption, but at least it is better than 'guessing'. Most important for me is that I find it very difficult to 'feel' difference in thickness with my fingers, I often find myself guessing rather than doing qualified assessments. If anything one can hope to feel one paper is more rigid and less willing to bend. But even that doesn't necesarrily say the stiffer paper is thicker than the softer.... there is thin hard papers as well! This is the case for both the Large and the Small Queens of Canada. One type of paper is stated as 'Thick soft (blotting) paper'. It's supposed to be thick but still soft...it puzzles me how to find them  I hope and believe actual measured values can be useful. I actually already ordered a digital caliper on eBay today, so please say you agree, hahaha 
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Nov 27, 2019 21:33:42 GMT
Thanks for spoiling my evening tobben63, I just ordered a 0,01mm one from China - haha It was cheap like anything, so I thought I would give it a try. I am not to overly optimistic... I am thinking to perform x number of tests, toggling between different kind of papers and if the results are consistent, at least one will have something to find differences. If not, trashbin next  |
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
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What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 27, 2019 22:06:59 GMT
This is what you want blaamand Gauge It has a spring that give the same pressure against the stamp every time. With a caliper it is your thumb that give the pressure  |
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 27, 2019 23:15:55 GMT
This is what you want blaamand Gauge It has a spring that give the same pressure against the stamp every time. With a caliper it is your thumb that give the pressure Very good discussion tobben63 and Jon blaamand - I read long discussions (threads) on another Forum (SCF) and some experienced members do not even agree, so I will shut up and wait to see more results, hahahahaha  Not an expensive tool, also !! René |
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Ryan
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 27, 2019 23:26:24 GMT
To what charts or data can we compare our results. I was looking at Chap 2, p 19 of Hillson's and Nixon's " Canada Postage Stamps of the Small Queen Era, 1870-1897" - the various papers described, from Paper A to Paper H do give subjective descriptions of each, but no objective measurement. Also searched the Index to find nothing on precise measurements. So I conclude that a "micrometer" is not useful in the study of SQs........or does this data exist ? A similar question was asked on TSF a few years back so I dug up a similar answer I had given on SCF even more years back. Have a look at this old thread on paper thickness. To steal the relevant bit: Note that this old article uses inch measurements, not millimeters. For conversion, 0.1mm = .00394". Manual micrometers with coarse gradients can be used, but you need an eye for judging the spacing between the marks in order to come up with the extra digit of accuracy. Or, you need what is known as a Vernier micrometer - they have a set of extra markings around the back to give exact measurements down to that extra digit (1/10,000" on manual micrometers - metric users will have their own gauge values). And note that you will likely want a ratchet thimble on your micrometer - that's a mechanism that restricts how tight you get the tool when you're measuring. If you don't have that, you can just keep tightening until the micrometer reads whatever small number you were hoping to see. That's using it like a clamp, not a micrometer! For the minority which isn't yet bored to tears, here's a video which helps explain the usage of an old-style, never-going-to-need-to-worry-about-a-dead-battery, Vernier micrometer. Ryan |
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renden
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Post by renden on Nov 28, 2019 0:01:51 GMT
Thanks Ryan ! for your summary and link, which I will read tomorow - we will see in the future if a micrometer (in metric) is a pre-requisite for studying stamps like LQs and SQs René |
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
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What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 28, 2019 7:13:25 GMT
The problem (as I see it) with a Vernier micrometer is that the spindle rotats when you turn the thimble. That means that when the spindle touch the stamp it can cause damage to the stamp.  If you use a thickness gauge there is no rotatong parts and it is a spring that give the same pressure to all the (in this case) stamps that is tested.  This is important. I work with these tools every day |
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Ryan
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What I collect: If I have a catalogue for it, I collect it. And I have many catalogues ....
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Post by Ryan on Nov 28, 2019 10:57:09 GMT
I have both and generally use my thickness gauge - it's far easier when testing multiple stamps. You have to retract the spindle on the micrometer far enough to make way for the stamp, and unless you're real careful you're going to jam the edge of the stamp against the spindle at some point simply because you miss the opening (because you haven't taken the time to wind the spindle far enough to get a big enough opening). The thickness gauge is much quicker to use - the spindle lifts up enough when using the thumb lever and I don't have as much risk of jamming the edge of the stamp into the spindle. I only have a mechanical one as shown in your picture and it's not as accurate as a micrometer, but for the most part it's good enough and it's what I almost always use.
Ryan
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blaamand
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Currently creating custom pages until 1940.
Posts: 1,459
What I collect: Worldwide - Stamps and Postmarks - not enough time...
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Post by blaamand on Nov 28, 2019 11:36:20 GMT
Ryan - that's very useful info about the paper of the SQ's, thanks for sharing tobben63 - your professional assessment of these tools are excellent, just what the non-familiar (like myself) need. I never thought of the difference in applied pressure or rotating parts. The price for the model you're suggesting was a bit stiff .... Seems I need to have a word with Santa, maybe he can arrange for something very useful for daddy under the Xmas three this year 
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tobben63
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Stamp eat sleep repeat
Posts: 1,874
What I collect: I collect to much, world wide!
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Post by tobben63 on Nov 28, 2019 12:27:45 GMT
blaamand I have sent a mail to my tool suplyer and asked for a special price. I think if the price is right I want one to. much easyer to work with than the tool I have at home.
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I hope and believe actual measured values can be useful. I actually already ordered a digital caliper on eBay today, so please say you agree, hahaha 
Not an expensive tool, also !!
