barbu
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Post by barbu on May 13, 2020 10:30:20 GMT
This is a thread for all sorts of postmarks showing stamps used or postmarked outside of the borders of today Inspiried by feebletodix great thread about Postmarks, I feel there is an increasing interrest in postmarks. Personally if find the postmarks the most interresting part of our hobby, especially due to the facinating hunt for forerunners! One good thing about it is that on low budget you can still find huge treasures! Probabaly all of you folks reading this will have piles of forerunners in your albums already - or on your 'left over stamps'. Just digg in! So I invite you to display or discuss here whenever you find something e.g.: - Something as simple as a German stamp used in Poland (e.g 'Breslau') - Austria/Hungarian, Russian/CCCP or Ottoman stamps used in their earlier big empires. - You will find forerunners on Indian stamps (E.g Aden, Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Burma, Singapore, Penang, Zanzibar and in the Persian Gulf) - French Indochina stamps used in Cambodia & Laos - Aussie stamps postmarked in Papua, New Hebrides ++. - Japanese stamps used in Corea or China - Portugese stamps used in the Azores or Maderia or Danish used in the Faroe Islands (Come on - blaamand !! ) - Off course you find it on classic French, German and British stamps as were used in a wide range of their colonies or PO´s abroad. - It could be of more modern sorts, like Sudan stamps used in what is South Sudan today, or Finnish stamps postally used on Aaland Islands etc. - These are just a few examples, the list for possibilities for finding forerunners include much much more!!! Also, I would very much welcome in this thread such as: - Stamps of earlier stamp issuing ententeties like French West Africa, Yugoslavia, KUT, British/French/German etc Officies in The Turkish empire or similar, in special were the postmark shows the stamps were used in the smaller states or cities of that 'country'. For example a Beograd cancellation on Yugoslavia is not the most spectecular, were as it is more interesting to find these stamps postally used in Kosovo, Montenegro etc. - After-runnes!! This is a defintion I have for stamps used in smaller areas earlier issuing their own stamps. This is typically like Hawaii, Danish West Indies and Puerto Rico with a identible cancellation on US stamps. - Stamps cancelled abroad for any other reasons, e.g. Military Post abroad (like modern British stamps used in Hong Kong), Paquebot cancellations etc. Feel free and share whatever you think suits  Here are two examples: Stamps of Prussia used in Belgium (Eupen) and Lithuania (Memel):  |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 13, 2020 12:11:37 GMT
Working now on Romania, I would like to share some examples of Romanian forerunners. Romanian stamps first came valid for use abroad around 1878-80, hense there were several foreign PO´s in Romania. Greek, French and Russian Offices were in operation in addition to the private companies Danuba Black Sea Railway and the DDSR - Donau Steampship Company, but most notable were the Austrian/Hungarian offices in Romania as were in operation in 17 towns using the stamps of Lombardy & Venezia and to a less degree the later stamps of Austrian Levant.    |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 13, 2020 12:37:36 GMT
There have been several border changes in Romania, and in between WW1 & WW2 the 'Greater Romania' included the Northern Part of Bukovina which today is in Ukraina. The following photo shows cheap stamps - but for me very valuable because they are all used in Ukraina:) The biggest city was in Romanian language called Cernauti, today Chernivtsi. This same city was until WW1 located inside Austria using Austrian stamps - and the German/Austrian name was Czernowitz. (On of the stamps on the photo has the old Austrian cancellation bearing 'Czernowitz')  The stamp on the top of the photo is postmarked in Jsmail (Izmail - Ізмаїл) - also in Ukraina today. The Ismail area were 'traded' over from Romania to Russia around 1881 in exchange for Romanian Controll of the Northern Drobuja Area - which were previously in Ottoman hands. (Hence Turkish stamps are also a sourse for Romanian forerunners!!) |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 13, 2020 12:45:34 GMT
More from the 'Greater Romania' era. Moldova forerunners on stamps of Romania, all except one of the stamps cancelled in the capital Chisinau  ( I also have some cheap Romanian stamps used in Bulgaria (in the South Drobuja area) during the same periode, but no photo or the stamps availble) |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 7:49:01 GMT
Luxembourg used the ordinary German stamps in 1942-44. Myself & blaamand are using the term 'Intermediate-runners' for such stamps (acknowledging we for sure are a bit blown up in our minds). In this case the country (Luxembourg) used their own stamps before and after the German stamps, hence we think the term 'Forerunners' do not suits well - therefore 'intermediate-runners'). Anyone off you Gents out there using (or knowing) another terminology or definition for stamp used like this?  |
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on May 14, 2020 8:49:36 GMT
Jens ( barbu ), thank you very much for starting this interesting thread.... truly fascinating stuff! I congratulate you and Jon ( blaamand ) for your in-depth knowledge about postmarks and the ability to recognize special items when you see them. I am learning, but it is clear that I still have a long way to go. I am not aware of another term already in use for these so-called "intermediate runners", but just because I am not, doesn't mean that others will not know. From my personal point of view, the case of Luxembourg being taken over by Germany during WWII seems like an occupation to me, so I would have thought to call these occupation or wartime occupation postmarks. In the US, the term "overrun" countries was used to describe those conquered by the German Reich during the war, but "overrunners" doesn't seem right to me, either. In any case, I do have some true forerunners that I will be posting here in the coming days to contribute to this thread, but I need to get them organized and scanned first. I don't have too many, but I will share what I found. Once again, great thread!  |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 12:00:34 GMT
Thank you for kind words Chris:)- Beryllium Guy I am looking forward to your posting of forerunners or other Used Abroad stuff! Regarding other phrase for 'Intermediate-runners', I agree that 'overrunners' not either sounds very much better, but it was certainly a smart idea. Anyhow, the term is not intending to be reflecting for what reason the country used other stamps than their own (weather it was due to occupation or another political situation), but rather to be a more general term for other stamps used 'in between'. I am very glad that we have infected you to watch out for cancellations!! |
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on May 14, 2020 12:18:31 GMT
Excellent thread barbu, such an extraordinary interesting aspect of postal history certainly deserve a thread on its own. You have been my mentor and inspiration for collecting forerunners etc, and I hope your thread will help to make more collectors interested in the same. I will contribute more later, until then I hope to see a lot of interesting stuff from many forum members. |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 14:42:23 GMT
A sweet example of other 'Used Abroad' stuff. Ceylon stamp postmarked in Aden (This stamp was 'hided away' among thousands in a WW collection I bought on a internet auction - but the cancellation was staring hopefully at me, so I could not resist...)  Imperial India stamps were the stamps normally used in this once strategic and important trading/refueling/logistic hub, now located in the poor and war ravaged Yemen. But stamps of Mauritius and Ceylon is also known used there. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 14, 2020 15:14:59 GMT
Samoa had the peculiar situation of a local post office with stamps recognised for mail to NZ , Australia and the west coast of USA as far a San Francisco but were not in UPU in the 1890s . The bulk of the European population was German so the German consulate handled mail in parallel and in competition with the Samoan post Office. German stamps used from 1880 to 1900 when the islands became a German colony are called VORLAUFER or fore runners. Cancelled by the German Consulate agency   For a few months in 1895, following the loss of the cancel in a fire, the office handstamp for documents had to be used  |
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on May 14, 2020 16:49:54 GMT
barbu - that Ceylon stamp used in Aden is like a jewel!!! vikingeck - wow, those Samoa forerunners and cover are fantastic! And a great story on that hammer that got lost in a fire, I've never heard of it before. There's always something to learn on this forum, thanks for sharing.
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cursus
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Post by cursus on May 14, 2020 17:03:54 GMT
I'm not a native English speaker. So perhaps, I'm going to write something stupid, but, according to the above definition of "forerunner", any stamp postmarked on a place before being independent from a given (foreign) power is a forerunner of the stamps of that place once it becomes independent. So, any British stamp postmarked on any nowadays Republic of Ireland town before the Irish Free state is a forerunner of the Irish stamps; any Soviet stamp used in any of the today's independent republics, are forerunners of the stamps of those republics. Even, any British stamp with a Scotish postmark is a forerunner of the stamps of future Scotish Republic... Any Zagreb or Ljubjana postmarked Jugoslav stamp is a forerunner of Croatian or Slovenian stamps?
Not in my albums!
In my view the true forerunners are, for instance, the stationery and stamps issued by Lithuania in 1990 and 1991, before it became independent in September 1991, The uprating of Soviet stationery in Tallinn in July1991 with a "Eesti Post" surcharge, the Latvian stationery of late 1990 and 1991...
The Hibernian catalog lists the Fenian cinderellas as forerunners of the Irish stamps. I don't know in deep Irish history, I cannot argue about
All these items were issued to replace the occupying power ones and were intended to be used instead of them (for Estonia, it's not so clear, as they were uprating Soviet stationery). But, in all, there's a claim of sovereignity. So, they all are "something that goes before" or (as my Oxford Learner's Dictionay says) "person/item that prepares for the coming of another"
This is something that I fail to see on XIX century Irish letters in 1940/91 Soviet postal items, or in others...
Of course, everyone is free to collect what he/she likes and to name as she/he wishes...
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renden
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Post by renden on May 14, 2020 17:34:50 GMT
Now I am quite confused  René |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 18:54:57 GMT
vikingeck - Fantastic stuff these Samoa Vorlaufers!! I am amazed about your knowledge and such very lovely details you are sharing as with that 'lost in a fire canceler', never heard about it. Lucky you as have got hold off a nice example! Thanks for sharing:) 
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 14, 2020 19:30:47 GMT
vikingeck - Fantastic stuff these Samoa Vorlaufers!! I am amazed about your knowledge and such very lovely details you are sharing as with that 'lost in a fire canceler', never heard about it. Lucky you as have got hold off a nice example! Thanks for sharing:) It was a pretty big fire in Apia town in May 1895 affecting a number of buildings including the localSamoa Post Office as well as the German consulate . The Samoa office rescued their canceller and a number of sheets of 1/- stamps . All there were lost in the fire including the ink pad. for a month or so till new stamps arrived from New Zealand they bisected the stock of shilling stamps to use as 2 1/2d for overseas rate . The genuine bisects are cancelled with BLUE ink from a borrowed pad. Any bisected 1/- value with a black cancel is a fake or a late cancel to order. I’ll amend this later to include picture even though it is not a vorlaufer. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 14, 2020 19:45:10 GMT
I have to dispute with cursus on the tangled web he weaves over the term forerunner. Scotland is part of the uk so is irrelevant to his argument please! If Irish authorities call Fenian Issues fore runners then they must have authority. My German stamps used in Samoa 1880 to 1900 have been Vorlaufer in German catalogues for 120 years. They were not the occupying power / colonial administration until the Treaty of Berlin in 1900 . After that date the Kaiser’s Yacht issue was the colony stamp with the German stamps I show above as the Fore runners. Aden did not have stamps of its own in the 19th century . It was merely a calling point on the P&O sailings to India . India stamps were normally used in Aden as forerunners. Ceylon cancelled Aden is unusual and possibly paqueboat Mail. |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 20:13:49 GMT
I'm not a native English speaker. So perhaps, I'm going to write something stupid, but, according to the above definition of "forerunner", any stamp postmarked on a place before being independent from a given (foreign) power is a forerunner of the stamps of that place once it becomes independent. So, any British stamp postmarked on any nowadays Republic of Ireland town before the Irish Free state is a forerunner of the Irish stamps; any Soviet stamp used in any of the today's independent republics, are forerunners of the stamps of those republics. Even, any British stamp with a Scotish postmark is a forerunner of the stamps of future Scotish Republic... Any Zagreb or Ljubjana postmarked Jugoslav stamp is a forerunner of Croatian or Slovenian stamps?
Not in my albums!
In my view the true forerunners are, for instance, the stationery and stamps issued by Lithuania in 1990 and 1991, before it became independent in September 1991, The uprating of Soviet stationery in Tallinn in July1991 with a "Eesti Post" surcharge, the Latvian stationery of late 1990 and 1991...
The Hibernian catalog lists the Fenian cinderellas as forerunners of the Irish stamps. I don't know in deep Irish history, I cannot argue about
All these items were issued to replace the occupying power ones and were intended to be used instead of them (for Estonia, it's not so clear, as they were uprating Soviet stationery). But, in all, there's a claim of sovereignity. So, they all are "something that goes before" or (as my Oxford Learner's Dictionay says) "person/item that prepares for the coming of another"
This is something that I fail to see on XIX century Irish letters in 1940/91 Soviet postal items, or in others...
Of course, everyone is free to collect what he/she likes and to name as she/he wishes...
Thank you for your input. You have understood me more or less correctly with your first description of a forerunner; that is the way I have been used to categorize a forerunner. And you are bang on on your thougths about potential Scottish forerunners as well - so you should not be surprised that I am already putting aside British stamps with clear Scottish postmarks or Barred Numeral Cancellatons.  (If I will ever get time to organize them is another question, but that is my long term plan). I will just like to add that you have partly misunderstood how I interpreet forerunners:Wether a stamp issuing ententity get their Independance or not does not neccessarily matters, what matters is when the country/or the motherland are starting to issue seperate issues for that country/colony/area. For example are Indian stamps used in Aden forerunners to me - even if the later seperate Aden stamps bears the English flag as well. I am also aware that there are different views of what a forerunner actually is. I know for example that some collectors look at only foreign stamps of the mother country used in the 'possessed land' before the same 'mother country' issued seperate stamps for that country/colony are real forerunners. For example, that British stamps used on Jamaica before the Individual Jamaican stamps were issued is true forerunners, the same for French stamps used in Algeria before separate French Algerian postal authorities issued the Algerian stamps in the mid 20´ies. I have also heard about the version of forerunners as you are describimg, for example the early israel forerunners - which off course have nothing to do with cancellations as they are totally seperate issues. I guess that the understanding of a terminology have different views - just like in life in general. And I totally agree with you words: "Of course, everyone is free to collect what he/she likes and to name as she/he wishes.." Yes, that is our main goal - to collect what gives us pleasure - whatever terminology is the correct. However - at least for now untill others have convinced me otherwise - I will still like to keep the current name of this thread, as I do believe that my assumption of a forerunner - as in the German"Vorlaufer" as well - is the most used. Any comments are welcome:) |
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norsten
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Post by norsten on May 14, 2020 20:56:34 GMT
Thanks for starting this very interesting thread. I can only contribute with excerps from three ordinary postcards with Finnish stamp used on Åland Islands. The postmarks are from HAMMARLAND and ECKERÖ, the two westernmost municipalities on the main island. The last postmark is from MARIEHAMN, the provincial capital.  |
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 21:09:12 GMT
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barbu
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Post by barbu on May 14, 2020 21:32:41 GMT
Aden did not have stamps of its own in the 19th century . It was merely a calling point on the P&O sailings to India . India stamps were normally used in Aden as forerunners. Ceylon cancelled Aden is unusual and possibly paqueboat Mail. Totally agree with you that the Ceylon stamps postmarked in Aden probably are cancelled in transit in Aden - or paquebot - even if catalogues are mentioning Ceylon stamps as used in Aden. For me anyway - this postmark on a Ceylon stamp is a beauty, whatever postal origin behind the cancel . |
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cursus
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Post by cursus on May 15, 2020 3:31:29 GMT
As I wrote, I feel that everyone is free to collect what he/she wants and call which whatever name he/she chooses to do.
I won't withdraw any single word I wrote; but, I won't further polemize. And, that settles this question from my side. Everyone is free to follow its own way, as I do.
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Londonbus1
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Post by Londonbus1 on May 15, 2020 12:30:02 GMT
From Stanley Gibbons, and I quote: FORERUNNERS. Stamps or Labels, many of them provisional in nature, used before authorised issues are made for public use. The labels of the Jewish National Fund, for example, are regarded as forerunners of Israeli stamps, while the Sinn Fein labels are regarded as the forerunners of the stamps of Ireland. Sometimes stamps of one country are issued in another prior to the latter issuing it's own, and these stamps with identifiable postmarks would also be regarded as forerunners, e.g. GB used in many Colonies, Sarawak used in Brunei till 1907, or NZ used in Pitcairn till 1940. End quote. (From Philatelic Terms Illustrated). May I suggest that if this thread, given that it is in the General Stamp Discussion category, is for Postmarks only then barbu could change the thread title to 'Forerunners- Postmarks used abroad or outside the borders of today'. This will leave room for another thread with 'stamps and Labels' replacing Postmarks in the title. That would also make for an interesting topic !! Londonbus1 |
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Londonbus1
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Post by Londonbus1 on May 15, 2020 13:00:30 GMT
I agree with Beryllium Guy that the term for barbu's so-called 'Intermediate-Runners' would be more popularly known as Occupation Postmarks or Cancels. I am not sure if the intention was to include them here but a separate thread should be used for these to avoid any confusion. If this is the case, and the title "Intermediate-Runners' will be used, I suggest putting the words 'Occupation Postmarks' or similar in the title (possibly in brackets) so they will be more easily found during a search. |
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on May 15, 2020 14:11:23 GMT
There is a piece of land in North Germany which in the 19th Century was called the Duchy of Holstein. It was never an integral part of the Danish Kingdom,but the King of Denmark Frederik VII was also the Duke of Holstein. From 1854, a couple of years after Denmark issued its first stamps, Danish stamps were authorised for use in Holstein and these can be identified by the postmark numbers.  # 139 BRAMSTEDT #140 BRUNSBUTTEL #133 SEGEBERG    When Prussia and Austria Went to war with Denmark in 1864 these were replaced by stamps of Schleswig-Holstein and in 1872 by the new Prussian dominated GERMAN REICH stamps issued under the Kaiser. These Danish Stamps are therefore Forerunners of Germany for the Duchy of Holstein [ |
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jun 4, 2020 19:16:33 GMT
vikingeck - those Danish squares used in present day Germany are stunning  I'm working on Finland for the time being, and this is an interesting country with regards to the topic of this thread. Finland's border with Russia has been changed numerous times. From 1921-1939/44. Finland had an almost un-populated province in the north named Petsamo HERE , which was shaped like an arrowhead towards the artic sea, giving Finland a corridor and access to it's only ice free port. The Soviet Union/Russia occupied Petsamo 1939, and it was formally ceded to Russia 1944 as part of the Moscow agreement. Finland was left by the allies to bleed, because she had turned to Germany to stand up against Russia. In retro respect this could be considered an unfair move by the allies. Neither Sweden or Britain were willing to support Finland during the Winterwar 1939, in which Russia occupied Karelia and 10% of Finlands population was forced to flee, as well as Finland lost its most important industrial area. This forced Finland to accept support from the only country willing to help - Germany. For which Finland was punished - and Stalin became even more happy as he captured even more land and valuable Nickel deposits in Petsamo.  Due to the very limited population and few years under Finnish control, I was thinking it was against the odds to find any stamps used in Petsamo. So I was thrilled when I found one, even though not fully striked. A good example of how a very common stamp can get very interesting by a postmark, as evidence of the history of a nation. 
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Post by greaden on Jun 5, 2020 21:37:57 GMT
Does this count? Kingdom of Saxony postmarked in the neighboring German state of Saxe-Altenburg (numeral 11):  |
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Post by greaden on Jun 5, 2020 21:43:09 GMT
Prussia, used in the neighboring principality of Schwartzburg-Sondershausen:  |
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Post by greaden on Jun 5, 2020 22:05:44 GMT
Here is an after-runner. The stamps are Yugoslav, but the postmark is from Bled, in Slovenia. July 15, 1991 is about a week after their war of independence. The card was sent by a traveler in the Austrian mountains who noticed that the border post had vanished, so crossed into Slovenia for a quick peek. He described burnt buses in Ljubljana and a general air of tension.  |
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Londonbus1
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Post by Londonbus1 on Jun 6, 2020 12:47:07 GMT
Why 'after-runners' ? They are 'Forerunners' of the stamps of Slovenija surely. Same as all the others in the topic.
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blaamand
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Post by blaamand on Jun 6, 2020 15:46:27 GMT
greaden - that's some nice stuff, thanks for sharing You are raising an interesting question Londonbus1 . In my opinion the expressions/terms 'forerunners', 'siderunners', 'afterunners' etc are all a bit vague, as discussed previously in this thread. This part of philately is certainly not a science with clear-cut definitions...  so I do not think there is any right or wrong as such, but a little up to each collector how they think of it. I am primarily thinking of 'afterrunners' like barbu said in the initial post, eg stamps of US used in Danish West Indies can be considered as after-runners for the DWI. But others might think differently, and that's valid to. greaden has shown an interesting piece of postal history for Slovenia, cancelled 15 July 1991 - about 3 weeks after Slovenia gained independence on 25 June 1991. The first stamp of independent Slovenia was issued the very next day, 26 June 1991. However stamps of Yugoslavia were valid for postage in Slovenia until 25 April 1992, meaning the stamps Greaden showed us was were still valid for postage. So is it an afterrunner or not? I wont judge  I will tend to agree with Londonbus1 , I would have thought of it as a forerunner, however with somewhat late usage. Whatever one choose to call it I find it an interesting piece. Would have been even more interesting if used actually after validity ended in April 1992. Which raises another question - does anybody have a nick-name for such usage, after end of validity for stamps from previous 'mother-nations'? Dead-runners?
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so I do not think there is any right or wrong as such, but a little up to each collector how they think of it. 
I will tend to agree with