vikingeck
Member 
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 29, 2020 11:00:21 GMT
Inspired by ameis33 who posted a message in the shouting box referring to CODOGNO as the city in Italy where Covid first appeared in March, I searched among the “stuff I no longer need” and found these. in the 19th century there was no ITALY , just a collection of small states and kingdoms and a large chunk of the north known as LOMBARDY & VENEZIA was part of the AustroHungarian empire. These were issued for use in that part of northern Italy and here is CODOGNO in Lombardy ![]() htt oibb.co/qdTpcHz/DFCA8419-E3-BC-
I am unsure whether I should add this to the thread of Forerunners , since it is Austrian rule which eventually became part of the unified Italy |
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rex
Member
Posts: 1,217 
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Post by rex on Jun 29, 2020 13:29:38 GMT
The Kingdom of italy was born the 17 of March 1861.
The Lombard Venetian "Kingdom" is listed as an "" Ancient italian state "" in every catalog.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 29, 2020 15:11:14 GMT
Ok rex but not in all catalogues are they listed as Italy, these issues date from 1854 , Lombardy was annexed to Sardinia in 1859. And Venezia not Italian till 1866 .So they are listed in Gibbons and Scott catalogues after Austria not Italy . They are “forerunners” |
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rex
Member
Posts: 1,217
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Post by rex on Jun 29, 2020 16:19:49 GMT
Yes it is possible that not all catalogs are the same, in fact the specialized Sassone dates 1850 the issues of the two stamps.
I don't own Scott and I don't have with me the Gibbons, I can only refer to Unificato and Sassone.
In your post you seemed unsure where to place them, I gave an answer by following my catalogs, instead now I see that you have no doubts..better that way.
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salentin
Member
collecting Germany,where I live and about 20 more countries,half of them in Asia east of the Indus
Posts: 6,557
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Post by salentin on Jun 29, 2020 16:51:05 GMT
The history of the above stamps is actually quite complicated. The Austro-Hungarien Empire was established in 1867,after the end of the German-German War,what led to loss of Venetien (Venetia). Since then the term "k.u.k." monarchy was used.
On the above stamps you can see the inscripton "KKPOST- STEMPEL" (KK postage stamp). Till 1867 the first K stood for "kaiserlich" (imperial),the second K for "königlich" (royal). However the difference to the "k.u.k." was,that in "KK" "königlich" stood foremost for the Kingdom of Bohemia. The Emperor of Austria was not only King of Bohemia,but of a number other kingdoms as well,among them King of Hungary. He had f.i. also the symbolic title of the "King of Jerusalem". When Austria issued her first stamps,a seperate issue for Lombardy and Venetia was necessary,because these two provinces had a different currency (silver based),than all other parts of the Empire,what had a paper-currency. The Kreuzer-stamps of Austria were not valid in Lombardy and Venetia,while the Centes-stamps were valid in the whole Empire. All mayor catalogues list the stamps under Austria,simply because they were issued by Austria,as the german inscription indicates.
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vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,551
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
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Post by vikingeck on Jun 29, 2020 18:48:09 GMT
salentin , thanks for that information . I had assumed the Austro Hungarian empire was older and applied to these stamps. In the 1860s Italy was being united. Meanwhile in Germany , Prussia was getting more dominant in the 1860-1872 period under Bismarck’s influence. Interesting that you refer to the German -German war and the date 1867! It was a troubled decade. In 1864 Austria and Prussia were allies against Denmark and took control of Slesvig and Holstein but then Prussia defeated Austria and controlled all of Schleswig-Holstein . By 1870 Prussia went to war with France, conquered and annexed Alsace Lorraine , and the King of Prussia became Kaiser (emperor) of the United Germany in 1872.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jun 29, 2020 22:15:58 GMT
Anyway, Codogno is where i was today for work... and Milano is where i live... nice choice... BTW! Not sure how Lombardo-Veneto translates in english, but Venezia is the town, Lombardia/Veneto two regions. I don't know a lot of these stamps, but they're listed in every italian catalog related to the old italian states, and specially the Lombardo-Veneto is quite popular in the last years. There are italian collector who could tell you everything about the paper used, the different colors, the types and subtypes of the postmarks, the composition of the ink used to cancel them, which and when they've been used... Of course, THE reference catalog is the Ferchanbauer, but i will not be so sure the reference area is Austria or Italy... Or at least, i believe they're more collected in Italy rather then in Austria... Speaking about Lombardo-Veneto... I see the old italian states a sort of a different philately respect to the one i collect... The effort for such a collection, in term of time and money, it's much over my possibility... Have you ever seen the movie: A crime in Paradise? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Crime_in_ParadiseThe stamp collection of Jojo match perfectly with my idea... |
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rex
Member
Posts: 1,217
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Post by rex on Jul 7, 2020 12:32:05 GMT
I find the title of this thread offensive and outrageous, done with negative sarcasm toward Italy, and also it looks more like a tacky joke ""title"".
Secondly the description of 19th century Italy, it is given superficially and incorrectly in many parts, and here too there is that negative sarcasm.
For those who want to read few posts above, would discover that the author of the thread who speaks like a history professor,... by his admission, he does not know when the Austro-Hungarian Empire was established.
At this point reflection is needed, but really presumption can be mistaken for knowledge...??
I get tired of seeing attitudes devoted to divism, just because they started collecting a hundred years ago
on monday afternoon.
Things are known or unknown, this approximation is not honest.
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ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 546
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
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Post by ameis33 on Jul 7, 2020 15:08:11 GMT
The title come from something i wrote about Covid... something like "Today i was working in Codogno... and i live in Milan..."
So, if any, the responsability is mine... No need to start another war... If something wrong has been said, let's correct it...
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