JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,259
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 21, 2020 17:58:39 GMT
|
|
renden
Member
Posts: 8,052
What I collect: World W collector with ++ interests in BNA (Canada etc) and USA
|
Post by renden on Sept 21, 2020 18:09:45 GMT
No dilemmas for me Jeff !! I do not soak envelopes - I keep those I like, (ex: the nice stuff I receive from members) or special orders I buy (ex: Royal Mail). One day I will start using these in the Postmark Calendar !! René One envelope in April 2018 from blaamand (Jon) from Norway.....fully decorated - a keeper !! 
|
|
hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 5,994
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
|
Post by hrdoktorx on Sept 21, 2020 18:13:56 GMT
Definitely "save". If you soak, you'll end up with a no-gum-uncancelled block without much philatelic interest. If the block was cancelled, the choice would depend on the quality and location of the cancellation. But I would still lean towards "save".
|
|
kostia84
Member
Posts: 191
What I collect: Pharmaceutics (thematic), WWII (thematic), Israel (chronologically)
|
Post by kostia84 on Sept 21, 2020 18:33:05 GMT
I think you are the only one to answer, because the answer is in what is it that you collect. I see nothing special to me in that envelope. But there is definitely someone else that would. I would have soaked. Nothing special with the envelope, better to put those stamps into my album. Although the cancelation is neat. Kostia
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,350
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 21, 2020 18:52:59 GMT
Nice thread topic, JeffS! It raises a good question, and I hope that others may add to this thread with their own items. I usually take each item on a case-by-case basis and try to decide whether leaving stamps on cover adds to their intrinsic value, i.e. collectability. I am less concerned about catalogue value, although I admit that could be a factor in a decision, too. In the case of the example you have posted, I would do something in between what the others have suggested. I would preserve the stamp in the right hand corner "on piece" with its complete postmark, which seems quite nice, but I would soak the uncancelled souvenir sheet and the etiquette off the envelope. I rarely leave uncancelled material on its cover, as to me at least, the lack of a cancellation has already significantly reduced the philatelic value of the entire piece. This is exactly why I always try to get postal clerks to hand cancel all of the stamps on every envelope that I send through the mail. In cases where the stamps don't get cancelled, there is nothing to be done about it after the fact, so I just soak the stamps off.
|
|
Mr. H
Member
Member - APS #129381
Posts: 856
What I collect: US, Netherlands, Whatever suits my fancy.
|
Post by Mr. H on Sept 21, 2020 19:34:13 GMT
I also look at them on a case by case basis.
One of my criteria is that they should be cancelled within the appropriate period. ie. I wouldn't save a cover loaded with 1950s 3 cents stamps that are cancelled this year.
|
|
ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 481
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
|
Post by ameis33 on Sept 21, 2020 19:38:00 GMT
Don’t do today what you can do tomorrow
|
|
daveg28
Member
Posts: 949
What I collect: U.S., Canada, Great Britain & Commonwealth, France (esp. 1950-80), DDR, USSR
|
Post by daveg28 on Sept 21, 2020 20:31:40 GMT
I think it greatly depends on the usage and the cover in question. As to the one shown, I think I'd soak that one, but I'd have to look into it further.
|
|
brightonpete
Departed
Rest in Peace
On a hike at Goodrich-Loomis
Posts: 5,110
|
Post by brightonpete on Sept 21, 2020 20:48:04 GMT
That cover is a keeper in my eyes! Look at that great cancel! Soak & you lose it! That would be a shame.
If you don't want it, I'll gladly take it off your hands!
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,259
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 21, 2020 20:57:19 GMT
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. Lots of fun.
For me it is a soaker. The Kinder sheet is from 2003, terribly out of period.
I feel the decision depends on a few points:
Is the owner a stamp collector, cover collector or postal history fan? Is it a personal souvenir?
. . . . .
Anyone else have a cover to post?
|
|
|
Post by smauggie on Sept 21, 2020 21:04:59 GMT
To me, once a cover is postally used, it is not soakable.
|
|
hrdoktorx
Member
Posts: 5,994
What I collect: France (and French territories), Africa, Canada, USA, Germany, Guatemala, stamps about science, flags, maps, stamps on stamps...
|
Post by hrdoktorx on Sept 23, 2020 21:23:05 GMT
Same question, but from a different angle. On the envelope that Beryllium Guy used to send me the COGH triangle (which I won't soak because it features one of his signature COGH triangle cinderellas on the back, fear not!), he used some of these modern Machins with the safety tear-off ovals (what's the technical name, again?). So my question, to people that handle UK mail, are such stamps soakable without damaging them or it is always better to leave them on piece? 
|
|
Beryllium Guy
Moderator
Posts: 5,350
What I collect: Worldwide Stamps 1840-1930
|
Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 23, 2020 21:34:06 GMT
Thanks for making this post, Xavier ( hrdoktorx )! I am glad to see that the Machins used as postage were machine-cancelled, but didn't realize that would be in Swindon rather than here in Oxford.... interesting! I hope that some of those who know about Machins will respond to your question. I can tell you that these are all self-adhesives, and because they have those partially-cut lozenges right into the design of the stamp (I also can't remember the technical term for those), my personal guess (and it is only a guess) is that these will come apart if there is any attempt to remove them from the envelope, either soaked in water or otherwise. But let's see if others may know the answer: Londonbus1 , cjoprey , vikingeck , angore , philatelia , brightonpete , cursus , daniel , anglobob .....
|
|
kostia84
Member
Posts: 191
What I collect: Pharmaceutics (thematic), WWII (thematic), Israel (chronologically)
|
Post by kostia84 on Sept 23, 2020 21:43:56 GMT
I "soak" them by organic solvent. I use isopropanol. When the glue is too strong - heptane. Others use pure citrus and stuff like that. Just pull it gently, and clean gently. Kostia
|
|
JeffS
Member
Posts: 2,259
What I collect: Oranges Philately, US Slogan Cancels, Cape of Good Hope Triangulars, and Texas poster stamps and cinderellas
|
Post by JeffS on Sept 23, 2020 21:52:22 GMT
I'm "old school" and use my handy container of Ronsonol lighter fluid for such.
|
|
anglobob
Member
Posts: 2,318
What I collect: France and French Colonies,French cinderellas British Commonwealth QE2
|
Post by anglobob on Sept 23, 2020 22:36:16 GMT
Regarding soaking secuurity Machins. I keep them on the envelope or save them on pieces,depending on the size of the envelope.I have never been able to soak them off,they usually disintegrate.
Anglobob
|
|
cjoprey
Member
Scanning stamps for my website...
Posts: 1,291
What I collect: Belgium (predominantly), British Commonwealth (older ones), WW (whatever comes my way...)
|
Post by cjoprey on Sept 24, 2020 8:18:59 GMT
I must admit I haven't tackled the self-adhesive Machins with security features yet - but I would assume soaking is not an option. My plan would be to try a spare with some sticker remover (I got this from Amazon: HG sticker remover) and see what happens.
|
|
vikingeck
Member
Posts: 3,015
What I collect: Samoa, Tobacco theme, Mail in Wartime, anything odd and unusual!
|
Post by vikingeck on Sept 24, 2020 8:34:34 GMT
I’m with JeffS and use Ronsonol lighter fluid .......I know about the fumes ........careful teasing especially round the two die cut ovals , then you still have the sticky back which precludes putting them in albums !
|
|
|
Post by dgdecker on Sept 24, 2020 20:41:15 GMT
An interesting assortment of replies to your question.
I have not set “rules” on this. I just evaluate how it would add to my collection and/or would another collector want it.
In this case I would soak the sheet, and save the stamp and post mark.
The sheet May then have little monetary value but it might aid other collector to acquire as a “filler” .
David
|
|
|
Post by dgdecker on Sept 24, 2020 20:44:46 GMT
Thanks for making this post, Xavier ( hrdoktorx )! I am glad to see that the Machins used as postage were machine-cancelled, but didn't realize that would be in Swindon rather than here in Oxford.... interesting! I hope that some of those who know about Machins will respond to your question. I can tell you that these are all self-adhesives, and because they have those partially-cut lozenges right into the design of the stamp (I also can't remember the technical term for those), my personal guess (and it is only a guess) is that these will come apart if there is any attempt to remove them from the envelope, either soaked in water or otherwise. But let's see if others may know the answer: Londonbus1 , cjoprey , vikingeck , angore , philatelia , brightonpete , cursus , daniel , anglobob ..... I have never attempted to soak the security Machins. As they are self adhesive I am reluctant to attempt. Others have replied how they deal with them, so I will one day get brave. My collection is mostly mint so I have not had to soak any. David
|
|
tomiseksj
Moderator
Woodbridge, Virginia, USA
Posts: 6,130
What I collect: Worldwide stamps/covers, Cinderellas, Ohio Prepaid Sales Tax Receipts, U.S. WWII Ration ephemera
|
Post by tomiseksj on Sept 25, 2020 14:20:23 GMT
I don't save modern covers. I will often use the envelope as scratch paper before placing it in the recycle bin. I'll scan the corners of those with legible postmarks (below) and add the images to my calendar folder for future posting. Lastly, I'll cut the stamps off the cover and place them in my "someday" pile where they will remain until I have an urge to either soak or, in the case of self-adhesives, remove using Pure Citrus. 
|
|
philatelia
Member
Stamping in Bermuda this week
Posts: 2,626
What I collect: Ireland, Japan, Scandy, USA, Venezuela, Vatican, Austria
|
Post by philatelia on Sept 25, 2020 17:09:05 GMT
PLEASE LEAVE UNSOAKABLE STAMPS ON PIECE!
I have NEVER seen an unsoakable stamp that was removed using chemicals that looked as good as one left alone - they always look worse. Really! I challenge anyone here to do a side by side comparison! Some MAY look oK, but the paper feels slightly oily or slick from the chemicals saturating the paper. While you may manage to do a nice job of protecting the fronts of the stamps, er, well, the backs are not so great. The stamps come out wrinkly, the surface is often covered with microfractures, colors are faded, they stink of chemicals etc. etc. Sometimes the chemicals strip the cancels - red USPS cancels are notorious for fading. It is almost impossible to remove every bit of goo, so they end up sticking together which ruins the stamp underneath it in the glassine. Some people try to put powder on them which makes an awful mess on my black stock cards, not to mention that I'm allergic to the perfumes in most powders. And - there are no long term tests to see what those chemicals will do to the paper. Consider all those classic issues that were watermarked with strong chemicals that are now faded. Besides, why expose yourself to a bunch of chemicals? Not healthy!
So I collect unsoakable self adhesives on paper. If you check out Scott's their prices for modern USA are for stamps left on piece. I don't mean to sound grumpy or picky, but those chemically treated stamps are damaged in my opinion.
The good news is that it is a LOT less work to leave them on paper! For the countries that I collect, most can soak except for USA after 41c era, recent Sweden, some recent Denmark and a few Finland issues and Ireland starting with 55p issues. There may be others that I haven't encountered yet. I've recently run into a few Austria that don't soak either. What I do is test on a common stamp so I don't risk ruining a scarce commemorative.
I have actually considered setting a cutoff date for countries that start issuing unsoakable self adhesives. I don't accept any self adhesive Ireland now - I have too many for one thing and I get too many from people who try to take them off and damage them. Into the bin they go! What a shame.
Summary - first DO NO HARM! Leave them on the cover or on the piece.
|
|
guilloutran
Member
Account Temporarily Disabled
Colllecting France
Posts: 202
What I collect: Western Europe (pre-Euro), France and colonies (pre-1995), United States and Canada (pre-1980, engraved ->2000), British colonies and United Kingdom (engrave to 2000)
|
Post by guilloutran on Feb 17, 2021 16:20:45 GMT
It’s funny how modern US are designed so that it’s not remove-able from paper. I mean, it’s removable with chemicals, but others countries self adhesive come off paper when soaked to water just like normal stamps.
For that reason, how do younger/newer collectors supposed to know what to soak and what not?
|
|
ohiohawk
**Member**
Posts: 23
What I collect: Mainly US, but also world
|
Post by ohiohawk on Feb 18, 2021 23:35:30 GMT
I have actually been able to get all but the most stubborn US stamps off. I used hotter than normal soaking temperature to get them off. and a small trick, after soaking them for about 7 minutes, I place my forefinger on the back of what is stuck to, and my thumb on the stamp itself, then gently (while in the hotter water) it will move is you make it move. I have done it to about 94% of them, the rest are just "cemented" I swear. but again, hot water, and it will mainly do the trick....
|
|
guilloutran
Member
Account Temporarily Disabled
Colllecting France
Posts: 202
What I collect: Western Europe (pre-Euro), France and colonies (pre-1995), United States and Canada (pre-1980, engraved ->2000), British colonies and United Kingdom (engrave to 2000)
|
Post by guilloutran on Feb 19, 2021 7:27:04 GMT
I have actually been able to get all but the most stubborn US stamps off. I used hotter than normal soaking temperature to get them off. and a small trick, after soaking them for about 7 minutes, I place my forefinger on the back of what is stuck to, and my thumb on the stamp itself, then gently (while in the hotter water) it will move is you make it move. I have done it to about 94% of them, the rest are just "cemented" I swear. but again, hot water, and it will mainly do the trick.... Oh yeah, if you was determined to remove the paper off then you should be able to! I'm just not even bothered to remove the back anymore. Do no harm.
|
|
rex
Member
Posts: 1,051
|
Post by rex on Feb 19, 2021 9:54:14 GMT
Modern self-adhesive stamps of all nations are problematic to wash / peel off. Personally I leave them on the envelope if they have clear postmarks, otherwise I cut them out and leave the stamp on a paper fragment. Soak this kind of stamps is a messy job, plus the stamps aren't as fresh and beautiful as before. I humbly don't suggest chemicals, leaving everything as it is is best.
|
|
kyleb
**Member**
Inactive
Posts: 13
|
Post by kyleb on Feb 24, 2021 20:57:10 GMT
I for the longest time soaked everything. But lately I have started storing more stamps on paper in my vario sheets to display nice and unique cancelations and other postal markings. I figure I can still enjoy the beauty of the stamp whether or not it is on paper.
|
|
cara
Member
Posts: 198
What I collect: Germany (FRG, GDR, Berlin); occupied Germany 1945-1949, Deutsches Reich 1872-1945, Switzerland, USA (newbie)
|
Post by cara on Feb 28, 2021 10:31:13 GMT
This is a very interesting post. And the discussion shows different opinions to the question "save or soak".
I would like to add another opinion to the discussion, the opinion of a German stamp collector about German stamps.
The question for me is not "save or soak", the question is "save or throw away". Let me justify my opinion:
Firstly, the question is whether somebody is collecting only stamps or stamps and covers. Let us assume that someone collects stamps and covers.
Secondly, we want to agree that these are not stamps of special value.
Based on that what is the result of soaking: - one has a Michel # 2360 sheetlet Kinder without gum and without cancellation. Already the value of a nice cancelled # 2360 is almost zero, the value of a stamp without gum and without cancellation is ...? - in addition you have a Michel # 2900. Not to be confused with Michel # 2908 (same stamp but self adhesive). # 2900 is more rare than # 2908, nevertheless the value is almost zero. If you soak it you loose the cancellation and you have only the wavy lines on the stamp. For such a common German stamp not worth to collect.
If you save it, you have: - A neat and tidy cover - Correct 1.10 postage to the USA - Michel # 2900 with full cancellation on an edge piece
If you do not want to save the whole cover you can preserve the # 2900 "on piece" with its complete postmark ant throw away the rest (proposed by Beryllium Guy).
So I would save it (because I'am primarily a cover-collector). I'am sure other German collectors would throw it away. But I do not think that many German collectors will soak it. But of course there is no "wrong" or "right" here.
Cara
|
|
ohiohawk
**Member**
Posts: 23
What I collect: Mainly US, but also world
|
Post by ohiohawk on Mar 2, 2021 13:30:31 GMT
I do know one thing, from this day onward, I will NOT be soaking the self stick ones. even though I can soak them off pretty easy, it is a more time consuming process. I was thinking about this while I have been soaking older stamps. I have been slowly taking the present stamps I have, and putting showguards on them, replacing those folded tabs (besides those taste like....) so when I do add to the albums, the newer self-stick will be showguards.
The reason for my change, though it is a task to take the self ones off, it removes the adhesive from the back, though this does not bother me, it does leave a almost non stick-able backing, that nothing but a showguard will hold. hence my change of mind. As for the post marks, I agree with another member, if the nasty cancel monkey has made it beyond nice, it is a trash item. If I cant enjoy it, then it is worthless. with 1 caveat, if it is a stamp that I do not have an abundance of, then I will consider saving it till I can come across a better looking one.
|
|
ameis33
Member
What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet
Posts: 481
What I collect: Poland and Italy Republic
|
Post by ameis33 on Mar 18, 2021 19:58:17 GMT
It's since last year i'm taking out all the stuffs i've around everywhere, and i finally come to the letters... First half are italian and polish, second half the rest of the world... Too much space, i must finally find a definitive location... What would you do in my place? Rather then save or soak, throw or keep? sell or exchange? Simply make a gift... But who could be interested? Does it worth the expanse of a parcel, considering that the overall weight is not light (i belive some kg...)  While i was thinking over, i did what a normal stamp collector should do... Take a look at the stamps. German definitives, flowers  In Danemark, they have a special care for stamp collectors   Private delivery services (is it?)  Thank's to Thyrolphila, Swarosky and personalized stamps  Machins cannot miss   French Marianne, one of my favourite   Have you ever heard about UN issues? 
|
|