henrye
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Post by henrye on Sept 30, 2020 20:21:10 GMT
This is the stamp I was trying to identify when my search led me here.
The trouble is, every listing I have seen for it shows it to be a nice blue color. The one I have is gray.
All of these images were taken using only sunlight for illumination to make sure that the color came out as true as possible. The stamp is laying on a piece of white paper on a piece of glass. This allowed me to reflect sunlight up through the bottom of the stamp to highlight the watermarks and shows that there is no physical damage to the stamp.
1) The first image shows the stamp next to a Coke bottle cap for color check.
2) Next is an image of the stamp in direct sunlight. 3) This image is with sunshine coming through the stamp 4) Holding the stamp at an angle in sunlight to highlight the embossing from the top. 5) Holding the stamp at an angle in sunlight to highlight the embossing from the bottom.
Is this actually a color variant or am I mistaken in my identification of this stamp?
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khj
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Post by khj on Sept 30, 2020 21:42:55 GMT
You may have the gray blue variety. I didn't check Michel, but in Scott it would be Bavaria 42a(1876).
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Sept 30, 2020 21:51:42 GMT
Hi, Henry ( henrye ), and thanks for your post. Looking at the images, I am guessing that yours is Perf 11½. Is that right? If not, and you want to know the Scott Catalogue number, let me know the actual Perf size, and I will check the number again. So, if I have guessed the perf size correctly, it looks like it could be Bavaria Sc42a 20-pfennig blue gray, which is a color variety of the more common Sc42 ultramarine. Not sure about the website you are trying to use for identification, but the color would seem to be listed in Scott. Hope this helps. Bavaria, Sc38-47 Coat of Arms definitive set, 1876-1878 Excerpt from 2008 Scott Classic Specialized Catalogue 1840-1940Edit: I see that Kim ( khj ) has beaten me to the punch while I was pulling this together with the snipped image. Good one, Kim!
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 30, 2020 21:52:27 GMT
here's a scan of all the 20 pf stamps that I have, though there is varying debrees of "blue" nothing comes close to your gray example!
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 30, 2020 21:56:05 GMT
There is also the sad possibility that the stamp has been sun faded . UV light if for example the stamp has been a few weeks in a sunny dealer’s window in its past history, blue can fade quite quickly to a grey or even a beige colour . In similar circumstances I’m inclined to the “can it be a faded changeling? ” school of thought
I have a few old books with blue bindings on the covers where the spine is pale grey , Quite a different colour , from exposure to light on a bookshelf..
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vikingeck
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Post by vikingeck on Sept 30, 2020 22:29:49 GMT
My Michel catalog makes no mention of grey blue with that wide wave watermark, which is the 1876 issue (Scott 42 : Mi 40 is only ultramarine Shades ) The only Grey blue listed in Michel is with Vertical wavy lines issued in 1881 Mi 50 which cannot be your stamp. Has Scott got it wrong Perhaps , and possibly not for the first time . As Michel is German I'm inclined to believe them , and think again about sun fading. stainlessb can you check the perf and watermark on your 20pf First row number 3 and in the second row Number 6 . that looks kind of greyish blue to me LOOK AT THIS BOOK BINDING : Sunlight is the death of Blue !
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stainlessb
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Post by stainlessb on Sept 30, 2020 23:09:17 GMT
Alex ( vikingeck ) first row #3 Wz 2, 11-1/2 appears to be Michel 40, which one is hard to say (my Michel lists 3 tones) Row 2 # 6 perf 14-1/2 Wz 4appears to be Michel 57B I'm using Michel Deutschland Spezial 1999 (B/W) I have another on paper that looks like it might be 11-1/2 I will give it a bath and report back
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khj
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Post by khj on Oct 1, 2020 1:57:08 GMT
To me, the stamp shown in the OP is Wz2 (wide wavy lines).
I checked my 2013 Michel Germany Specialized, and it lists the following shades for Scott #42 (Michel #40):
40a gray blue (first printing) [gray blue] 40b dark gray ultramarine (shades) [Prussian blue] 40c (dark) ultramarine to medium violet ultramarine [ultramarine]
The gray blue color variety (first printing) and Prussian blue color variety have noticeable premiums over the common ultramarine printing.
However, even the gray blue color variety has a very strong blue component, which is not at all evident in the OP's pics.
There is certainly a strong possibility that the stamp shown by the OP is sun-light faded, especially since it is a used stamp.
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henrye
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Post by henrye on Oct 1, 2020 2:46:47 GMT
Thanks for all the replies. I had not seen mention of the gray/blue issues before. You cant beat having good information. While the suggestion of sunbleaching makes sense (I have a lot of books with faded spines - LOL), it would have had to happen a long time ago. This stamp came from a book given to me by my friend Owens a couple of years before he died in 1996 at the age of 96 (he was born Dec 2, 1899) where he had put it when he was a kid. The stamp was in that book from about 1910 until I pulled it out to take the images. He lost interest in stamps in his early teens, so there isn't much in it after he started noticing girls . The extreme crispness of the embossing leads me to feel that it is a fairly early printing. Aside from sunbleaching, are there other environmental factors that could lead to color fading? Other stamps in this book, from the same time period, do not exhibit any change from blue to gray so I tend to discount anything in the paper. BTW, khj, what does OP stand for? Opening Post?
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khj
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Post by khj on Oct 1, 2020 3:37:06 GMT
BTW, khj, what does OP stand for? Opening Post? Sorry. Depending on context, OP can stand for Original/Opening Post/Poster/Picture... I mentioned OP to avoid confusion with the other stamps that were posted later in the thread.
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henrye
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Post by henrye on Oct 1, 2020 5:45:59 GMT
Cool. I had the general idea.
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Beryllium Guy
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Post by Beryllium Guy on Oct 1, 2020 7:15:40 GMT
Good discussion on all of this with nice contributions from Kim ( khj ), Stan ( stainlessb ), and Alex ( vikingeck ). It's an interesting stamp and question from Henry ( henrye )! I am also a big believer in the possibility of color changelings due to sunlight, soaking, sulphuretting, and other reasons, and I realized after Alex's later post that I should have mentioned that, too. Good catch there, Alex. It's an excellent and very valid point. Henry, in my experience, one cannot discount that sun exposure didn't happen just because it would have had to have been a long time ago. In addition, I should add that in some cases, it doesn't take much time or even direct exposure to fade the original color. A recent example happened to me. I sometimes use Post-It notes as bookmarks in a notebook that I use for my work, and I had used a bright-orange color one, with just a bit sticking out from between the pages when the book is closed, about 3mm ( approx. 1/8 inch). After just a few days of leaving the notebook sitting closed on a table in a room that does not even get direct sunlight through the windows, look how faded the exposed edge of the orange Post-It note has become. Personally, I don't have any trouble believing that a kid long ago could have left a stamp album open in a sunlit room for hours at a time, which was cumulatively enough to fade a blue stamp to gray. From the OP, I can't see any trace of blue in your stamp, which I also think reinforces the argument that it is faded rather than a color variety. Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, and I am not an expert or specialist of any kind in this area. In my experience, color changelings are much more common than rare color varieties when it comes to old stamps.
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henrye
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Post by henrye on Oct 1, 2020 16:42:44 GMT
Yeah, the more I ponder the sunbleaching possibility, the more I feel that it is what probably happened.
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